Klingon Losses during the War

[ATW]

We know through the series that the Klingons took a beating in the in the second year of the Klingon-Cardassian war, losing their foothold in Cardassian space with a mass withdrawal from Cardassian space once the Cardassians joined the Dominion.

We also know the Maquis were all but wiped out by the Dominion.

Now my question, as I don't think it was every mentioned in the series but did, at any time the Klingon Empire lose any territory during the Dominion War? Were any of their worlds subjegated? I cannot once remember a mention of any Klingon stronghold falling to the Dominion?

Although, I know Star Trek is mainly a history/story of the Federation but I find it to be poor form we did not know or find out about any losses (territorial) the Empire received - as the only info I can find is the "Klingon Defense Force was set back for decades" - Memory Alpha after the war. (Although I do remember Martok saying Gowron would not accept such a plan to re-take DS9 as it would leave the Empire vunerable).

 

[Deranged Nasat]

We know through the series that the Klingons took a beating in the in the second year of the Klingon-Cardassian war, losing their foothold in Cardassian space with a mass withdrawal from Cardassian space once the Cardassians joined the Dominion.

We also know the Maquis were all but wiped out by the Dominion.

Now my question, as I don't think it was every mentioned in the series but did, at any time the Klingon Empire lose any territory during the Dominion War? Were any of their worlds subjegated? I cannot once remember a mention of any Klingon stronghold falling to the Dominion?

Although, I know Star Trek is mainly a history/story of the Federation but I find it to be poor form we did not know or find out about any losses (territorial) the Empire received - as the only info I can find is the "Klingon Defense Force was set back for decades" - Memory Alpha after the war. (Although I do remember Martok saying Gowron would not accept such a plan to re-take DS9 as it would leave the Empire vunerable).

I don't believe any episode ever mentioned Klingon space being invaded (the Federation lies between them and the Cardassian border), but the novels have suggested they lost territory temporarily, particularly during the later stages of the war.

 

[Praetor]

You have to consider that space is three dimensional, and the Dominion could have potentially gone "over" the Federation and annexed space there, and then annexed Klingon space. That's probably how the Dominion got to Betazed.

Regarding ship losses, I somehow imagine the Klingon tendency to inexorably fling themselves at a superior vessel in a final act of honorable desperation saw that there were many Klingon vessels lost in the war.

 

[Anwar]

I wonder if a group of Klingons ever got into a ramming competition with a group of Jem'Hadar during the war.

 

[Praetor]

I. Will. Not. Make. A. Martok-at-371. Joke.

I think that's almost a guarantee, though.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

You have to consider that space is three dimensional, and the Dominion could have potentially gone "over" the Federation and annexed space there, and then annexed Klingon space. That's probably how the Dominion got to Betazed.

Regarding ship losses, I somehow imagine the Klingon tendency to inexorably fling themselves at a superior vessel in a final act of honorable desperation saw that there were many Klingon vessels lost in the war.

Oh yes. Sloan said the Klingons would, in Section 31's estimation, spend the next decade recovering from the war, leaving the Federation and the Romulans as the two superpowers.

As for three dimensional space, yes, of course, but Klingon territory does not share any borders with the Cardassian Union, so invasion of their space would have to come later in the war. We know the Dominion attacked on several fronts, including across the Romulan Neutral Zone and near Bolarus and Benzar, so the Klingons were likely facing attack from some direction, but only after the Dominion had fourght its way through whoever else was in the way.

 

[Anwar]

The Klingons and the Cardassians had to have some point of contact for their space. Garak and Bashir discussed the "Betreka Nebula Incident", a conflict that last for 18 years I think.

As for the Romulans, NEM crippled their government so I'd say the Feds have nothing to worry about.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The Klingons and the Cardassians had to have some point of contact for their space. Garak and Bashir discussed the "Betreka Nebula Incident", a conflict that last for 18 years I think.

The books have established that the Betreka Nebula was in neutral territory, closer to Cardassian borders than Klingon. According to "The Art of the Impossible", the Klingon's interest in the planet was cultural rather than territorial. The book also established that the space between Cardassian and Klingon territory was either Federation-claimed or neutral.

 

[Timo]

^And this ties in well with the onscreen facts. After all, if the Klingons already shared border with the Cardassian Union, why would they have done the politically inconvenient jaunt through DS9 when they attacked Cardassia?

One might speculate that most of the space around and even within our Alpha Quadrant empires is fairly empty and poorly patrolled, so that everybody can play with everybody else through everybody else's territory. The exceptions would be relatively few, such as the heavily fortified and tripwired Romulan Neutral Zone. Everywhere else, the norm seems to be that an intruding starship or fleet is only initially met by a single opposing starship in any given adventure. And if the intruder is cloaked, like Klingons and Romulans tend to be, interception is highly unlikely...

As for Klingon losses in the Dominion War, I'd expect them to have been heavy especially in the final offensive rushes. This somewhat echoes the mad dash of the Red Army in WWII, and was perhaps performed for similar reasons: more spoils for the fastest and most audacious winner. But we don't know if the Klingon Empire had an industrial base to match the losses, like Stalin did. S31's evaluation might be correct if the Klingons couldn't replenish. Then again, said evaluation may have been mere subterfuge, just like everything else stated and done in the episode "Inter Arma" where this claim was made...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^And this ties in well with the onscreen facts. After all, if the Klingons already shared border with the Cardassian Union, why would they have done the politically inconvenient jaunt through DS9 when they attacked Cardassia?

Exactly.

One might speculate that most of the space around and even within our Alpha Quadrant empires is fairly empty and poorly patrolled, so that everybody can play with everybody else through everybody else's territory. The exceptions would be relatively few, such as the heavily fortified and tripwired Romulan Neutral Zone. Everywhere else, the norm seems to be that an intruding starship or fleet is only initially met by a single opposing starship in any given adventure. And if the intruder is cloaked, like Klingons and Romulans tend to be, interception is highly unlikely...

As for Klingon losses in the Dominion War, I'd expect them to have been heavy especially in the final offensive rushes. This somewhat echoes the mad dash of the Red Army in WWII, and was perhaps performed for similar reasons: more spoils for the fastest and most audacious winner. But we don't know if the Klingon Empire had an industrial base to match the losses, like Stalin did. S31's evaluation might be correct if the Klingons couldn't replenish. Then again, said evaluation may have been mere subterfuge, just like everything else stated and done in the episode "Inter Arma" where this claim was made...

Timo Saloniemi

That's true...

Also, seeing as the Klingons had to hold the line against the Breen on their own for a few weeks, they might have suffered significantly more losses than the other allies during that late stage of the conflict.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Klingon attack on DS9, first attack on Cardassia, and the ongoing war/conflict with Cardassia must have cost some ships, not enough to seriously damage their fleet, perhaps.

The Jem Hadar surprise attack on their fleets after Cardassia joined the Dominion no doubt cost a few ships as well.

Then, with the Klingons reinstating their treaty with the Federation, they may have a small chance to recoup and repair their fleets...


With the war in general one problem is that we hear more about what's going on in the Federation than we do about the Klingons.

If they share a border with the Romulans, and they were allowing the Jem Hadar to go through parts of their space to attack the Federation, it could have happened to the Klingons too, but it seems not enough to capture territory, at least not yet.

It seems the Klingons fared better as far as not losing territory, but lost a great deal of ships, perhaps more than the Federation and the Romulans, because they were in conflict for a longer time.

Now, on the other hand, they could have had a large stockpile of war ships to fight with, which may be why they were able to fight for so long.

And also, because of their agressiveness and warrior thinking, it may be reason why they were able to prevent the Dominion from seizing their territories.

Consider, that Betazed got invaded, partly because they had out of date planet defense sysytems which weren't manned properly anyway.

The Klingons would probably make sure nearly every planet, (at least of importance to them) would be strongly defended (minefields, boobytraps, cloaked ships everywhere waiting to attack).

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The Klingon attack on DS9, first attack on Cardassia, and the ongoing war/conflict with Cardassia must have cost some ships, not enough to seriously damage their fleet, perhaps.

The Jem Hadar surprise attack on their fleets after Cardassia joined the Dominion no doubt cost a few ships as well.

Then, with the Klingons reinstating their treaty with the Federation, they may have a small chance to recoup and repair their fleets...


With the war in general one problem is that we hear more about what's going on in the Federation than we do about the Klingons.

If they share a border with the Romulans, and they were allowing the Jem Hadar to go through parts of their space to attack the Federation, it could have happened to the Klingons too, but it seems not enough to capture territory, at least not yet.

It seems the Klingons fared better as far as not losing territory, but lost a great deal of ships, perhaps more than the Federation and the Romulans, because they were in conflict for a longer time.

Now, on the other hand, they could have had a large stockpile of war ships to fight with, which may be why they were able to fight for so long.

And also, because of their agressiveness and warrior thinking, it may be reason why they were able to prevent the Dominion from seizing their territories.

Consider, that Betazed got invaded, partly because they had out of date planet defense sysytems which weren't manned properly anyway.

The Klingons would probably make sure nearly every planet, (at least of importance to them) would be strongly defended (minefields, boobytraps, cloaked ships everywhere waiting to attack).

This reasoning all seems solid to me

 

[Praetor]

Something just occurred to me: wasn't the whole point/justification of the Battle of Cardassia that the allies were afraid the Dominion would go into "fortress mode" on Cardassia and rebuild and come back and wipe them all out if they didn't go ahead and finish the war off then and there?

So, the allies must have either known or concluded that Cardassia, via the Dominion, did indeed have a much more impressive industrial capacity than it once did, and could indeed beat them on their own, perhaps having got whatever they needed to do so from the Gamma Quadrant before the wormhole was closed to them.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Yes, and the Jem Hadar are definetly one key as well....

They don't sleep or rest, so it's most likely that they are the ones working the shipyards.

And when you have soilders that are active and awake every hour building ships, one can see how the Dominion can produce ships at such a rapid rate.


In order to counter that, the Klingons may have had a large stockpile of ships that they built up in the pre- T.N.G years and even earlier.

The treaty and alliance with the Federation would have allowed for them to build up that stockpile, because the alliance would have been advantageous for both sides -

The empire no doubt became more prosperous because of it, and without having to worry about the Romulans, and enjoying a good economy, it would have been easier to build up that stockpile..

It just got worn down quickly after so many conflicts - just enough to defend the empire and see the end of the war, but leaving their fleets extremely damaged and vulnerable...

 

[Anwar]

Something just occurred to me: wasn't the whole point/justification of the Battle of Cardassia that the allies were afraid the Dominion would go into "fortress mode" on Cardassia and rebuild and come back and wipe them all out if they didn't go ahead and finish the war off then and there?

So, the allies must have either known or concluded that Cardassia, via the Dominion, did indeed have a much more impressive industrial capacity than it once did, and could indeed beat them on their own, perhaps having got whatever they needed to do so from the Gamma Quadrant before the wormhole was closed to them.

The Dominion didn't just send ships and soldiers to the Cardassian Union when they joined the Dominion, they also sent supplies and technology as well. Dominion ship-building and soldier production are superior to all Alpha Quadrant powers so if left on their own with the full resources of the Cardassian Union (which had acquired resources during their wars of expansion even before the Dominion before the Klingon attack destroyed the industrial base) and their technology already in place they could easily create a force to overpower the Allies. Sisko said that it might take something akin to 5 years to do so but when they came out of Cardassian space they'd have enough to win easily.

Remember, the Feds may be able to match their shipbuilding quotient but they can't just gorw fleet officers like Jem'Hadar.

 

[Jono]

Interestingly according to Grilka her House had suffered heavily in the war with the Cardassians; losing ships, soldiers and land.

In "Rules of Engagement" the Cardassian world of Pentath III is said to border the Klingon Empire, which is why the Defiant was asked to escort the Cardassian convoy with medical supplies.

With both of these you could explain them away by saying they referred to the territory the Klingons claimed in the opening week of the war. So Pentath III is close to Klingon conquered Cardassian territory and Grilka's House was awarded/claimed Cardassian territory and later some of it was reclaimed by the Cardassians subsequently since "Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" takes place a year after the events of "The Way of the Warrior".

 

[Timo]

One might also say that Grilka's House lost lands back home as punishment for the poor performance in feodal service... Or perhaps as the result of debts accumulated to sustain the war effort.

Timo Saloniemi