Fans, what don't you like about DS9?
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
I never realized the 7th season was that bad--I enjoyed it while it was unfolding (though I hated WYLB) but I can argue with very little there.
I can definitely see why he is referred to as "Confused". I thought season seven was the show's best due in no small part to the Final Chapter. The season wasn't perfect but it certainly did more right than wrong.
I hated the whole deus ex machina gig they pulled when there was no other way of neutralising the Dominion fleet about to fuck over the entire Alpha Quadrant. That was so lame.
Also, the whole pah wraith story line was pretty bad.
Also, the whole pah wraith story line was pretty bad.
Of course there was another way, they just had to have Rom cut the weapons grid two seconds sooner. They didn't write themselves into a corner, the writers wanted to use the Prophets in that way and I think it was far smarter than having the heroes save the day just in time... again. This method was more original and we got that fantastic shot of the minefield coming down, which I was shocked at when I first saw it. I did not expect the Dominion to actually win.
Also, a deus ex machina is when a God shows intervenes in a story when previously none was mentioned, the Prophets do not qualify as a deus ex machina because they were in the show from the beginning and they only acted because The Sisko pleaded with them to intervene.
As a teenager I hated it because I wanted to see the Defiant kick some Dominion ass in the wormhole, but I've rewatched the series twice now and both times I found myself loving the way that was handled.
A prophet being Sisko's mom was definitely a WTF moment for me, but I've no problems with previous actors depicting their forms. It adds a touch of otherworldly creepy to them; armed with hindsight, seeing Picard and Locutus as Prophets was pretty mind-screwy.
No. The Dominion was better, faster, more efficient. Logically, they should have won that battle. No deus ex machina, no status quo. That's what I mean. The whole "we know it'll end well anyway" thing needed to be shaken up.
Like blowing up Vulcan.
Like blowing up Vulcan.
If the Dominion fleet had made it through the wormhole then the Federation would have lost the war in six months even with Romulan help. I'm fine with shaking things up, that's exactly what we had for the previous 6 episodes with the Dominion in charge of the station, but having the Dominion win the war is not a satisfactory conclusion to the series.
The fleet had to be stopped from getting through the wormhole, the two main options available were the have them stop the Dominion from taking down the minefield at the last moment or having the Prophets intervene. I didn't want to see the heroes save the day at the last second again, I'm sick of it. The idea of having the Prophets intervene hadn't been done before and it gave us the shock value of seeing the minefield come down and seeing the heroes react to their loss. I'm happy the writers took that route, it is a high-point of the series for me.
The fleet had to be stopped from getting through the wormhole, the two main options available were the have them stop the Dominion from taking down the minefield at the last moment or having the Prophets intervene. I didn't want to see the heroes save the day at the last second again, I'm sick of it. The idea of having the Prophets intervene hadn't been done before and it gave us the shock value of seeing the minefield come down and seeing the heroes react to their loss. I'm happy the writers took that route, it is a high-point of the series for me.
I wasn't satisfied and am still not with the last minute save by the Prophets. It would have been like Q showing up and resolving "The Best of Both Worlds I" by flinging the Borg cube to the other side of the galaxy. I refuse to believe that the imagination is so limited that there was only two creative choices by the writers--let the Prophets intervene or a last minute save by Sisko. And one of those directions was to have let the Dominion fleet through. Just because at that stage the Dominion were projected to overrun the Alpha Quadrant in six months didn't mean it would be so. As this series repeatedly showed us that things could happen in the blink of an eye that could reshape the geopolitical landscape or alter fortunes.
Personally, I would have enjoyed the Federation on the losing end and having to resort to resistance fighting.
As it stands that decision pretty much halted the momentum the previous episodes had done such a beautiful job of building up. Instead we were treated to a season that pretty much sidelined the War and its players except for the occasional mention or peripheral connection to the episode's plot. I'd rather have had something other than Resurrection, Times Orphan, Profit & Lace, Who Mourns for Morn, You are Cordially Invited, Valiant etc.
Personally, I would have enjoyed the Federation on the losing end and having to resort to resistance fighting.
As it stands that decision pretty much halted the momentum the previous episodes had done such a beautiful job of building up. Instead we were treated to a season that pretty much sidelined the War and its players except for the occasional mention or peripheral connection to the episode's plot. I'd rather have had something other than Resurrection, Times Orphan, Profit & Lace, Who Mourns for Morn, You are Cordially Invited, Valiant etc.
It's funny you bring up Q and the Borg, because something almost exactly like that happened, except it was Q flinging Enterprise to the other side of the galaxy in "Q Who" that initially (until later retcons) brought the Federation higher up on the Collective's list of targets.
Yes, the Dominion in that situation was smarter/faster/more efficient. But they were also inside the domain of the Prophets, and establishing/confirming the Prophets as complete masters of the space inside the wormhole was a brilliant stroke by the writers. It both confirmed for the viewer that the Prophets are indeed on our side and care for Bajor, and also gave them power and abilities worthy of the Bajorans' devotion but not overpowering, a la Q. It's not as if the Prophets reached out and stopped Dukat from lowering the mindfield, or played any continuing active role in the War, boosting the Bajorans or Starfleet in any way. We don't even know where those Jem'Hadar and Vorta went, or when - the Prophets' mystery was maintained while still performing a critical role on Bajor's behalf.
The Dominion found itself in an impossible situation - on the one hand, they need the wormhole to remain connected with the rest of the Dominion; on the other hand, they cannot use the wormhole so long as the Prophets inhabit and rule it. Even laying aside the effects of that particular fleet, unrestricted wormhole traffic by the Dominion would have doomed the AQ at that stage. The only recourse for the AQ powers would be to blow up the wormhole... except that the Dominion would never allow any fleet or even ship to get that close.
And as fascinating as it may well have been to do a post-conquest DS9 or Resistance spinoff, there's no way that would have ever flown with Berman. I think what we got was an imaginative, character- and theme-appropriate story and resolution that both fit within the universe and also didn't conform to expectations. Cause really, Rom could have cut the wire in time, and the fact that he didn't and the Station Resistance in fact failed was a big deal.
Yes, the Dominion in that situation was smarter/faster/more efficient. But they were also inside the domain of the Prophets, and establishing/confirming the Prophets as complete masters of the space inside the wormhole was a brilliant stroke by the writers. It both confirmed for the viewer that the Prophets are indeed on our side and care for Bajor, and also gave them power and abilities worthy of the Bajorans' devotion but not overpowering, a la Q. It's not as if the Prophets reached out and stopped Dukat from lowering the mindfield, or played any continuing active role in the War, boosting the Bajorans or Starfleet in any way. We don't even know where those Jem'Hadar and Vorta went, or when - the Prophets' mystery was maintained while still performing a critical role on Bajor's behalf.
The Dominion found itself in an impossible situation - on the one hand, they need the wormhole to remain connected with the rest of the Dominion; on the other hand, they cannot use the wormhole so long as the Prophets inhabit and rule it. Even laying aside the effects of that particular fleet, unrestricted wormhole traffic by the Dominion would have doomed the AQ at that stage. The only recourse for the AQ powers would be to blow up the wormhole... except that the Dominion would never allow any fleet or even ship to get that close.
And as fascinating as it may well have been to do a post-conquest DS9 or Resistance spinoff, there's no way that would have ever flown with Berman. I think what we got was an imaginative, character- and theme-appropriate story and resolution that both fit within the universe and also didn't conform to expectations. Cause really, Rom could have cut the wire in time, and the fact that he didn't and the Station Resistance in fact failed was a big deal.
I could watch another 7.
We're going off-topic with this so I'll let this be the last thing I say on the issue, but this is exactly what happened in the episode; one minute the Dominion were on track for certain victory and the next moment everything had changed utterly.
But one of the big reasons why I love that plot point is that the Dominion war and Sisko's role as the Emissary were the two biggest plot threads in the series and this was the only time that they truly intersected. I love the evolution of Sisko's relationship with the Prophets because in the beginning he saw them as wormhole aliens and had to explain his existence to them, but by this point his faith in them was so strong that he was pleading with them to save his life and his people. I think it was a great moment is the series and I appreciate it more each time I watch it.
I did enjoy that. Thanks, Mariner.
Like Brutal, I didn't realize at the time how, well, downwardly spiralling S7 was, but I really can't argue with Confused Matthew.
I will add WYLB to the list of things I didn't like, not entirely but somewhat.
While it worked well at wrapping up the final arc of the series, I suppose, a lot of the first part felt rushed, and then the second half felt unnecessarily self-referential, wasting time that could have IMO been better spent doing more interesting things. I mean, everyone was splitting up, and then Sisko goes and deals with Dukat. There was nothing really tying all that together, I don't think. I might be the only one that feels that way...
Check out his other stuff, especially his Matrix and Star Wars reviews. You'll die laughing.
I can sum it up in two words:
It ended.
I realize that. I just happened to not like it. It was one of only a few things that marred the Occupation arc(the others being "Sons & Daughters" and no main castmember being killed off).
Some things I didn't like about DS9? That's tough but here were some:
- The series seemed to shift focus a lot. Probably from Network interfearence, but Season 1 was like TNG, Season 2 started to get further from the TNG mold and really develop the overall scope of what was to come (With TNG's help with the Maquis), Season 3 introduced the Dominion, and Season 4 the Klingons came. It really was season 5 through 7 that the series ran with one focus. Not saying this was bad, but in doing so, they left out some important plot points from earlier, such as Bajor's admittance to the federation, and they could have done more with the Maquis. I know people don't like the Bajoran stuff, but I found this really fascinating in the second season and it was almost dropped in the later years. Also, what happened to the Changelings on earth plot point from Homefront/Paradise lost.
-I wish more was done at the end with Ben and Jake. There wasn't really a goodbye scene and it was those bonding episodes (Explorers, The Visitor, heck even Nor the Battle to the Strong at the end) that were some of the series best.
-The whole Dukat/Winn thing during the Final Chapter. Actually it hindered my opinion of the Final Chapter a lot as I rewatch it. The episodes from those 10 that are awesome (When it Rains, Tacking into the Wind), don't include either of them.
-The finale. I liked the finale, but it wasn't the best. Again, the stuff with Winn and Dukat, the montage, stuff like that downgraded the episode for me. Did love the pullback of the station though.
That's pretty much it. I love TNG, and I love DS9. I doubt we will get anything like those two series (IE, 90's Star Trek) again. Those were just awesome times.
- The series seemed to shift focus a lot. Probably from Network interfearence, but Season 1 was like TNG, Season 2 started to get further from the TNG mold and really develop the overall scope of what was to come (With TNG's help with the Maquis), Season 3 introduced the Dominion, and Season 4 the Klingons came. It really was season 5 through 7 that the series ran with one focus. Not saying this was bad, but in doing so, they left out some important plot points from earlier, such as Bajor's admittance to the federation, and they could have done more with the Maquis. I know people don't like the Bajoran stuff, but I found this really fascinating in the second season and it was almost dropped in the later years. Also, what happened to the Changelings on earth plot point from Homefront/Paradise lost.
-I wish more was done at the end with Ben and Jake. There wasn't really a goodbye scene and it was those bonding episodes (Explorers, The Visitor, heck even Nor the Battle to the Strong at the end) that were some of the series best.
-The whole Dukat/Winn thing during the Final Chapter. Actually it hindered my opinion of the Final Chapter a lot as I rewatch it. The episodes from those 10 that are awesome (When it Rains, Tacking into the Wind), don't include either of them.
-The finale. I liked the finale, but it wasn't the best. Again, the stuff with Winn and Dukat, the montage, stuff like that downgraded the episode for me. Did love the pullback of the station though.
That's pretty much it. I love TNG, and I love DS9. I doubt we will get anything like those two series (IE, 90's Star Trek) again. Those were just awesome times.
DS9 is far and away the best series of all of them, including TOS.
DS9 is much more detailed and must be watched in order, especially the later seasons. In the 90s in syndication, it came on after TNG on my local station. The other series, especially TOS and TNG were one episode stories, it did not much matter if you missed an episode. On DS9, there were long story arcs, and a lot of backstory
Obsidian Order, Central Command, The Prophets, Pah Wraiths, The Dominion. When I first watched it, the Cardassians were talking about Terek Nor, and I thought, "WTF is a Terek Nor?" As a poor, impoverished guy watching this series from an ancient black and white T.V. late at night after a tiring evening of employment, keeping up with all the stories, backstories, and races sometimes got a bit confusing.
What I did not like about DS9:
1.) The Dr. Bashir episodes, especially the episodes with the genetically modified people, the crazy guy with the mustache, the "vamp" woman, the slightly retarded old man, and the catatonic young girl. Barf. Move on.
2.) I really disliked any holodeck episodes from any of the series, and Dick Fontaine was no different.
3.) The Bajorans storylines. I think the Bajoran vs. Cardassian storylines gave off the wrong message, that is "beautiful is good" while "ugly is bad."
4.) The "Female Shape Shifter". Ever ask yourself, does the Founders have different sexes? Seems strange that the leader of the Dominion would take the form of a matronly older woman with large breasts, who would independently take the shape of what Odo looked like.
5.) Sisko and his "I'm black and proud routine." Isn't the idea of Star Trek is to show all races/colors of people to not matter? He wont go into Vic's holosuite because back in that time setting that blacks were discriminated against. We get it Sisko, you are black. So is Worf, but he's not wearing a NOI fez hat.
6.) The love stories. This is some thing I dislike from all the Trek series. (Or honestly from all series). In science fiction, I want to see space, space ships, action, weird aliens, and phaser fire. The Kira/Odo relationship was odd to me. Also, you never saw them in bed together. How does a woman make love to a shapeshifter? Does Odo shape a penis a certain size? Since Kira goes both ways (she's a closet bisexual), does Odo shape himself into Jadzia? How does that work?
7.) Keiko O'Brien. Any storyline with her, I skip. I really dislike the episode where she comes back to the staion and was possessed by an evil alien. Funny though, I am a westerner, married to a Chinese woman in the Zhongguo Star System.
8.) The Bajoran religion and those "prophets". What are those wormhole aliens saying? What do they want? Why don't they just come out from behind the shadows? Why take Sisko in the end, away from his wife, baby and son? That to me was very sad.
9.) The Breen! The dumbest evil aliens in the galaxy! Take off those helmets, you ugly bastards!
DS9 is much more detailed and must be watched in order, especially the later seasons. In the 90s in syndication, it came on after TNG on my local station. The other series, especially TOS and TNG were one episode stories, it did not much matter if you missed an episode. On DS9, there were long story arcs, and a lot of backstory
Obsidian Order, Central Command, The Prophets, Pah Wraiths, The Dominion. When I first watched it, the Cardassians were talking about Terek Nor, and I thought, "WTF is a Terek Nor?" As a poor, impoverished guy watching this series from an ancient black and white T.V. late at night after a tiring evening of employment, keeping up with all the stories, backstories, and races sometimes got a bit confusing.
What I did not like about DS9:
1.) The Dr. Bashir episodes, especially the episodes with the genetically modified people, the crazy guy with the mustache, the "vamp" woman, the slightly retarded old man, and the catatonic young girl. Barf. Move on.
2.) I really disliked any holodeck episodes from any of the series, and Dick Fontaine was no different.
3.) The Bajorans storylines. I think the Bajoran vs. Cardassian storylines gave off the wrong message, that is "beautiful is good" while "ugly is bad."
4.) The "Female Shape Shifter". Ever ask yourself, does the Founders have different sexes? Seems strange that the leader of the Dominion would take the form of a matronly older woman with large breasts, who would independently take the shape of what Odo looked like.
5.) Sisko and his "I'm black and proud routine." Isn't the idea of Star Trek is to show all races/colors of people to not matter? He wont go into Vic's holosuite because back in that time setting that blacks were discriminated against. We get it Sisko, you are black. So is Worf, but he's not wearing a NOI fez hat.
6.) The love stories. This is some thing I dislike from all the Trek series. (Or honestly from all series). In science fiction, I want to see space, space ships, action, weird aliens, and phaser fire. The Kira/Odo relationship was odd to me. Also, you never saw them in bed together. How does a woman make love to a shapeshifter? Does Odo shape a penis a certain size? Since Kira goes both ways (she's a closet bisexual), does Odo shape himself into Jadzia? How does that work?
7.) Keiko O'Brien. Any storyline with her, I skip. I really dislike the episode where she comes back to the staion and was possessed by an evil alien. Funny though, I am a westerner, married to a Chinese woman in the Zhongguo Star System.
8.) The Bajoran religion and those "prophets". What are those wormhole aliens saying? What do they want? Why don't they just come out from behind the shadows? Why take Sisko in the end, away from his wife, baby and son? That to me was very sad.
9.) The Breen! The dumbest evil aliens in the galaxy! Take off those helmets, you ugly bastards!
This was sort of explained in "A Simple Investigation" which showed Odo using his shapeshifting abilities to make copulation more interesting with a human woman he beds in the episode. Just because Mirror Kira was gay doesn't mean regular Kira was too.
Not too much. The fact that the writers - in an embarrassing rerun of what had happened to Wes Crusher in TNG - had no idea of what to do with Jake when he isn't with his father is one big problem. The consistently crappy performance of Louise Fletcher - doing her worst Louise Fletcher impersonation - as Kai Winn. The infamous final arc, which mixed some of the series' best material with the clumsiest, "meanwhile, back on Bajor" approach to DW Griffith storytelling. Also from season 7, the overuse of Ezri Dax, which unbalanced the ensemble approach DS9 had specialised in. The frontal lobotomy given to Leeta between her ba-ba-boom entrance in Explorers & the strawberry blonde cupcake that appears from season 4 onwards. The change in the opening credit music, also from season 4 onwards. & in the mixed answers department, i thought the use of the prophets in Sacrifice of angels was a brilliant touch, but felt more could have been done with it afterwards
Many of things that others disliked, i thought worked well. The older & wiser i get, the better i like the romances (particularly Kira/Odo). I didn't even mind the overuse of Vic Fontaine in the final season (although his appearance in The Emperor's new cloak help made this one of DS9's dumbest episodes)
Many of things that others disliked, i thought worked well. The older & wiser i get, the better i like the romances (particularly Kira/Odo). I didn't even mind the overuse of Vic Fontaine in the final season (although his appearance in The Emperor's new cloak help made this one of DS9's dumbest episodes)
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