"Countdown" canon? / "Countdown" Shotdown.

[Therin of Andor]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

You need the deleted scenes to explain what Nero and Co were doing for those 25 years.

And you need Countdown to explain how the hell a supernova could threaten the galaxy.

You might need, but why must every plot point be explained to within an inch of its life? It leaves nothing for people's imaginations. Why didn't we see every moment in Jim Kirk's boyhood? Why didn't we see McCoy's divorce played out? Why didn't we see Pike's rise to captaincy? Why didn't we see the night Jim Kirk was conceived?

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Countdown is such a key piece of the story puzzle, and is of sufficient quality, that it warrants this one-time exception.

That's the crux right there. There are bits of this film (i.e. the plot holes) that only make sense with the inclusion of Countdown and some of the deleted scenes. That's bad movie making right there.

I don't think it IS bad filmmaking.

It's not a plot hole, but more of a plot omission.

The plot-important parts of the story are there, if you're paying attention. The Mind-Meld covers much of it, and what happened to Nero and Romulus is covered in the interrogation scene with Chris Pike: "Don't tell me it didn't happen !!! I Watched it happen !!!".

Also, there is dialogue from Uhura in her quarters, and in the vaccine reaction/warning scene as Kirk finds Uhura that cover what happened to Nero in the last 25 years.

Specifically:

- Kirk states that the Kevlin was on the edge of Klingon Space when the Massive Romulan Ship shows up (Narada).
- Uhura mentions, in her quarters to her roommate (with Kirk under the bed) that she monitored a strange Klingon transmission about 47 Klingon ships being destroyed by a large vessel, from a Klingon Prison Planet.
- Later, Uhura confirms to Kirk (in Engineering), then Pike (on the Bridge) that the large vessel was Romulan.
- It is also established on the Bridge that the massive ship was disabled by the Kelvin, which was seen in the teaser sequence.

None of the other details are important to know for the movie, and would not have worked organically without falling into the "Exposition Scene" trap that could kill the movie's pace.

 

[T'Bonz]

Given the rapid-fire pace of the movie, it wouldn't have hurt to have wasted a minute or two explaining things.

I believe, however, that JJ Abrams and his creative team should put out an official exception that states that the events as depicted in the Countdown TPB/Comics be considered Canon.

Nope. Not aired, not canon. It cuts both ways though. Some utter crap that has been aired IS canon.

So as a fan, I just make my own personal mental canon.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

^ Which would be the smart thing to do here, I reckon.

 

[Overgeeked]

You need the deleted scenes to explain what Nero and Co were doing for those 25 years.

And you need Countdown to explain how the hell a supernova could threaten the galaxy.

You might need, but why must every plot point be explained to within an inch of its life? It leaves nothing for people's imaginations. Why didn't we see every moment in Jim Kirk's boyhood? Why didn't we see McCoy's divorce played out? Why didn't we see Pike's rise to captaincy? Why didn't we see the night Jim Kirk was conceived?

It's not that every thing needs an explanation, it's that things that don't make sense given the characters should be explained or that's a plot hole. Nero's all worked up about the death of his wife and unborn child, he's just arrived in some distant past, he easily cripples a Fed vessel, the Kelvin rams the Narada. That's air tight.

Here's the issue. It's never confirmed in the film that the Narada was crippled. The deleted scenes explain that it was crippled. Assuming it was crippled, 25 years to repair? That's a bit much to believe.

If the Narada wasn't crippled, they just waited for 25 years. Hot blooded, purely pissed off and raging Nero sits and waits. He took out one Fed vessel with little to no effort, and instead of slaughtering all of Star Fleet and waiting for Spock and the Red Matter to actually destroy Vulcan, he sits and waits for 25 years. That's a pretty big plot hole.

Countdown is such a key piece of the story puzzle, and is of sufficient quality, that it warrants this one-time exception.

That's the crux right there. There are bits of this film (i.e. the plot holes) that only make sense with the inclusion of Countdown and some of the deleted scenes. That's bad movie making right there.

I don't think it IS bad filmmaking.

Okay.

It's not a plot hole, but more of a plot omission.

Then you're not using the standard definition for the phrase and I would like you to define your terms.

The plot-important parts of the story are there, if you're paying attention. The Mind-Meld covers much of it, and what happened to Nero and Romulus is covered in the interrogation scene with Chris Pike: "Don't tell me it didn't happen !!! I Watched it happen !!!".

Uh, no. That dialog was in reference to Romulus being destroyed. Pike says, "Romulus is still there. That didn't happen." Nero yells the bit of dialog you cite. Nothing to do with the 25 years.

Also, there is dialogue from Uhura in her quarters, and in the vaccine reaction/warning scene as Kirk finds Uhura that cover what happened to Nero in the last 25 years.

Specifically:

- Kirk states that the Kevlin was on the edge of Klingon Space when the Massive Romulan Ship shows up (Narada).
- Uhura mentions, in her quarters to her roommate (with Kirk under the bed) that she monitored a strange Klingon transmission about 47 Klingon ships being destroyed by a large vessel, from a Klingon Prison Planet.
- Later, Uhura confirms to Kirk (in Engineering), then Pike (on the Bridge) that the large vessel was Romulan.
- It is also established on the Bridge that the massive ship was disabled by the Kelvin, which was seen in the teaser sequence.

All these points are good and valid, except the last. There was no mention of the Narada being disabled. Sorry. And "it was in the teaser" doesn't count when it's not in the final theatrical release. The deleted scenes are out there too, but they're still not in the movie or canon.

None of the other details are important to know for the movie, and would not have worked organically without falling into the "Exposition Scene" trap that could kill the movie's pace.

There are several deleted scenes that explain exactly what happened to the Narada for those 25 years. In the theatrical release of the film there is no explanation given for what it was doing for that time.

And just so we can be clear...

A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Emphasis mine.

As it stands (without those deleted scenes), Nero sitting on his thumbs for 25 years is a glaring plot hole.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Official" ≠ canon.

So why is that not on the comic itself? Why isn't there some label saying "This comic does not actually happen in the story line."?

Perhaps they didn't think that most readers would care that the fictional story told in the comic is less "real" than the fictional story of the movie.

 

[Just_Bob]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Although they didn't write the scripts, Orci & Kurtzman did write the story for the comics.

The comic prequel was written by Mike Johnson and Tim Jones. Orci and Kurtzman were both screenwriters on the film as well as exec producers.

Yes, Mike Johnson and Tim Jones wrote the scripts for each issue but they did not come up with the story. Orci & Kurtzman wrote the movie *AND* they wrote the story for the comics. It's right there in the Countdown credits: "Plot by Roberto Orci & Alex Kurtzman."

You are correct and I failed to mention that fact.

 

[Praetor]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Given the rapid-fire pace of the movie, it wouldn't have hurt to have wasted a minute or two explaining things.

I believe, however, that JJ Abrams and his creative team should put out an official exception that states that the events as depicted in the Countdown TPB/Comics be considered Canon.

Nope. Not aired, not canon. It cuts both ways though. Some utter crap that has been aired IS canon.

So as a fan, I just make my own personal mental canon.

T'Boss speaks T'Truth.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

I had no idea that Nero's capture by the Klingons had been included at any point in the film's development.

One of the trailers shows Nero, in rags, struggling with two helmeted Klingon prison guards. Their helmets are patterned like Klingon forehead bumps.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Is there an official word about 'Countdown' being canon or not..??

Not true. TAS has been canonized in the past. Then de-canonized. It is currently canon once again (at least according to startrek.com), unless of course Paramount's opinion doesn't matter.

Nobody even thought about what might be included in a "ST canon" until that infamous memo was written in 1989, in the hiatus between Seasons One and Two of TNG, when licensing was really hotting up (all previous licenses were abruptly canceled, so the new contracts could be negotiated, and more explicit about how the tie-ins had to conform, and to what.)

So TAS was canonical by default, prior to that memo. Filmation was being wound down in 1989, and the ownership rights to all of its backlist of many cartoon series and live-action productions were in a state of flux. TAS was not owned by Paramount at the time; they'd only handled distribution - of reruns of TAS - in the 70s. So it made sense to treat TAS as a tie-in, not a Paramount production, in 1989, and save a lot of red tape if, for example, likenesses of Arex and M'Ress were suddenly disputed. Hence, they were replaced in DC Comics' TOS series II. (See the Letters page of issue #1.)

 

[USS KG5]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

One's enjoyment of a movie, book or comic shouldn't hinge on whether an arbitrary party deems it "real" or not.

Well in addition if you DO take any notice of these things, and do not enjoy something you otherwise might as a result, you are loopy.

It is all FICTION comp-lete, total FICTION. the only purpose of "canon" is to help establish internal consistency for writers on the shows. It is not supposed to be used to stifle those writers, or to create "real" rules for a fictional universe.

 

[USS KG5]

As it stands (without those deleted scenes), Nero sitting on his thumbs for 25 years is a glaring plot hole.

No it isn't, he buggered off and stewed for 25 years, presumably repairing the daqmage from the Kelvin's suicide run without assistance took a little while.

The Narada is pretty big, probably it could 25 years just to sleep in every room.

 

[Garth Rockett]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

I had no idea that Nero's capture by the Klingons had been included at any point in the film's development.

One of the trailers shows Nero, in rags, struggling with two helmeted Klingon prison guards. Their helmets are patterned like Klingon forehead bumps.

Cool, I obviously missed that. Which trailer is it in?

 

[Daneel]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

I had no idea that Nero's capture by the Klingons had been included at any point in the film's development.

One of the trailers shows Nero, in rags, struggling with two helmeted Klingon prison guards. Their helmets are patterned like Klingon forehead bumps.

Huh... That's certainly an atypical appearance for Klingons. They almost look like they're wearing trench coats or something.

 

[Praetor]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.

Yeah, I'm not sure I like trenchcoated Klingons. Then again, they do have something of a Soviet/KGB flair to them so that's interesting.

 

[Bones2]

I think those Klingons work as those with the augment virus. Less bulky and more human looking (as in TOS), and the helmet ridges could be cultural.

As to Countdown, I read it before seeing the film, and I strongly feel that without it, you're only getting part of the story in the film. I'm further sure of this after hearing confusedmatthew and sfdebris discussing the film on youtube. Many of the flaws they seem to notice are explained or clarified in Countdown. What I would like to see is a direct-to-DVD animated Countdown, establishing it as canon (maybe with a few tweaks). I say animated, because a live action, while brilliant, would be very expensive, as well as the salaries involved.

So far the Narada not finishing off the Kelvin straight away (and I only saw the film once, a week ago), the Narada could well have been somewhat damaged from its transition through the black hole, judging by much of what I read from Alex and Bob in various Q&As about plot inconsistencies and such (TrekMovie's great for it). And I imagine that though it appeared to wipe out the Kligon fleet very easily in the comic, it may well have taken considerable damage, and also with the Enterprise E.

But yeah, I think you need Countdown to get the full picture.

 

[Roald]

I finished reading Countdown during the weekend, and I think it should be canonized ASAP..! Many """plotholes""" in the film are explained, and it gives Nero so much more depth and motivation as a villain.

I think the 'íf it ain't filmed it's not canon'-rule should be changed in regards to 'Countdown'. It's a unique enity, much in line with the Whedon written Buffy and Angel comics, which are also considered canon, while the other Buffy/Angel comics are not.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think the 'íf it ain't filmed it's not canon'-rule should be changed in regards to 'Countdown'.

CBS and Paramount know very well that approx. 1% of audiences read ST tie-in comics and novels. If the "Countdown" comic mini-series is made canonical, and then the next few ST movies (and their tie-ins) have to comply with it, what happens in a few years time when "Countdown" has fallen out-of-print, and is virtually unobtainable? Suddenly a new movie suggests that plot points in an old, out-of-print comic is essential background reading.

Similarly, when TAS was dropped from canon in 1989, it hadn't been available to most TNG viewers, or even TNG writers, for many years. So to insist that all future episodes, movies and tie-ins had to take TAS characters, events and tech into account was extremely obtuse.

Unless there's another TNG era movie, no one's going to notice much, but it would suddenly cause Pocket Books and IDW to make "Countdown" era stories comply with a comic storyline that, in time, may be hard to track down. Live-action, as-aired canon is simply the parent body of work, and everything else spins off from that. "Not canon" doesn't somehow mean "not quality".

 

[Bones2]

Well, it's a case of Countdown being so essential to the plot of the new film that, without it, there seems to be a lot of plot holes in the film. So making Countdown canon through an animated version would seem to be the best option to me. Otherwise the comic'll probably go out of print, everyone will forget about it, and analysis of the film in future will make it seem very flawed. I really think that without Countdown, you don't get the full picture.

 

[3D Master]

Re: "Countdown" Shotdown.(spoilers for the comic in my post)

As I've noted already, the comparison of the Federation to the European Union doesn't really work. The United Federation of Planets is just that -- a federation, a sovereign state comprised of sub-polities with whom the state shares power. The European Union, on the other hand, is an especially strong alliance of sovereign states that has been delegated some of the functions of a sovereign state -- but which is not itself a sovereign state, as evidenced by the lack of a unified foreign policy (e.g., the United Kingdom and Kingdom of Spain participating in the Iraq War while the French Republic and Federal Republic of Germany oppose the war) and lack of international recognition of the EU as a sovereign state.

The Federation, on the other hand, possesses all of the traits of a sovereign state. It has the right to make binding law throughout its territory (TNG: "Force of Nature"). It raises and maintains its own military in the Federation Starfleet. It can unilaterally declare martial law over the territory of one of its member states (DS9: "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"). It can conduct foreign policy without getting its member states' permissions (Star Trek VI). It exchanges ambassadors with other sovereign states. It declares war and wages peace. Etc.

In TNG, DS9 and beyond. (Really at the latest from STVI and beyond.)

Before that though, the Federation is not yet a state. "Journey To Babel" tells us very much a UN-like organization. For one thing, the Federation is unable to decide for the Tellarites whether or not they can exploit Coridan, not even once they've been admitted into the Federation. As Sarek says, if Coridan has entered the Federation, what can be done is that Starfleet can protect Coridan from among others the Tellarites. Starfleet protecting one Federation member world from another Federation member world.

You have to see the Federation not as one single thing, something that started out as not much more than a military alliance and slowly grew into the full-on statehood of the 24th century (and even then it isn't an exact match with any state of our time). During its existence, it existed as many conflicting things, and miss matches as it members tried to grow beyond what they had now, which invariably caused clashes with other movements, cultures, and species/worlds, producing growing pains.

As such, at the time TOS S2, the Federation was still much more UN than United States. It would be more like the EU by the time of STVI (but with some additional trappings including a - we assume chosen - president), and grow further in a US analog by the mid-24th century.


As for the canon debate on the comic; it should not really matter whether it is "canon", what should be the question is whether it is "in continuity (with the movie)". Orci's claim of "not canon" is really saying, "It isn't in-continuity with the movie, we barely had anything to do with it (and if we did, we couldn't be bothered to pay attention while writing it), and you might as well regard it as having nothing to do with the movie. It was just a way for the comic company to screw you out of your money, without it really having anything to do with the movie beyond the obvious." Which is just wrong on all accounts. You release an "official prequel to STXI", you better make sure that prequel can actually be a prequel and thus be in continuity with the movie. If it isn't that, what's the point? (Apart from screwing you out of your money of course.)