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Opinions about Trip and T'Pol

Middleman, I may be wrong. I suggest you look Up the word Libidio.
That way you will be sure of its meaning and not perhaps get a grabled translation.
Penguin
What I meant to say was "what Jolene meant when she used the term libido". At my stage of life and given my past history (no brag, just fact), I know all too well the definition of "Libido".

My take on it is, she admits that her libido is "over active" (notice I didn't say horny) and just maybe she admits to some issues with her personality, hence the "complex" comments we heard others say.

I need to find an appropriate thread to tell the story Dominic Keating told about Jolene and Connor at the February 2008 Star Trek convention in New Jersey. I busted a gut it was so funny, But I digress.....
 
Middleman. If that Keating story is not too long can you send it to me via PM? Would love to read it.

Thanks a bunch.
 
From the interviews from Jolene, it seemed she was not super crazy about Trip's character. And she rarely talked about Connor in interviews during filming (when Enterprise was on the air). (I think she answers questions from Trip fans now a lot though.) Before I get hate mail, I don't expect the entire cast to be totally in love with each other. I think it's natural to form groupings like in the work place -- people seek out friendships. For example Connor and Dominick got along very well; from the interviews it seems Scott, Jolene and John all got along pretty well (from what little they interacted); Scott and Connor liked each other okay; etc.
What would any of this have to do with the character's on screen chemistry?

What you imply, that because Jolene and Connor may not have been close friends off camera and it somehow came across in their acting together, really undermines their abilities as actors, I think. If both are doing their jobs, and I thought they did beautifully in scene after scene, how they feel about each other off camera shouldn't matter.

The converse is true also, sometimes actors who like each other a lot off camera have zero on screen chemistry.

Now, according to quotes attributed to her after season 3, Jolene wasn't happy about the season 3 state of T/T, I still think it was more of a cry out against the Beebs because she didn't say another negative word about T/T after Manny took over. But regardless of her personal feelings for the character (Trip), it certainly didn't stop the chemistry between their two characters from practically jumping off the screen, IMO.
 
^ I responded to Penguin (I believe) who indicated that Jolene liked guys like Connor. My response was a disagreement with her opinion -- that's how it fit into this thread.

GBlews: Now, according to quotes attributed to her after season 3, Jolene wasn't happy about the season 3 state of T/T, I still think it was more of a cry out against the Beebs because she didn't say another negative word about T/T after Manny took over.
Here are some negative words. Re her relationship with Tucker by the end of Enterprise.

"There were a lot of feelings, but nothing ever happened," she observed. "Either make it a relationship or don't, but you can't walk this line forever."
This seems to be under Coto's watch as well and was said at the end of Enterprise in season 4.
 
"There were a lot of feelings, but nothing ever happened," she observed. "Either make it a relationship or don't, but you can't walk this line forever."
This seems to be under Coto's watch as well and was said at the end of Enterprise in season 4.
Well Blalock was right, that "will they, won't they" BS became tedious, bordering ridiculous. Coto mishandled the romance badly IMHO, in spite of having good intentions (sound familiar?).
I suppose he wanted to make up for it to TnT fans with "Bound," and we all know how that turned out.
 
"There were a lot of feelings, but nothing ever happened," she observed. "Either make it a relationship or don't, but you can't walk this line forever."
This seems to be under Coto's watch as well and was said at the end of Enterprise in season 4.
Well Blalock was right, that "will they, won't they" BS became tedious, bordering ridiculous. Coto mishandled the romance badly IMHO, in spite of having good intentions (sound familiar?).
It might not be fair to lay the Season 4 treatment of T/T solely at Coto's feet. Berman and Braga, as exec producers, still had final approval of episode content and scripts. It's quite possible UPN had its mitts in there as well.

It's also possible that Coto et al had something else in mind for the Season 4 T/T arc (based on the groundwork laid in Season 3, especially "Similitude," "The Forgotten", "E2," "Countdown," and "Zero Hour"), but another objective took precedence (i.e., trying to increase viewership, esp. with the desired demographic, with more TOS-connected stories, more action-oriented plots, notable guest stars, 2- and 3-episode arcs).

"Home" struck me as a calculated move to put the T/T relationship on hold, which seems inconsistent with the Season 3 arc. My guess is that TPTB didn't have "Home" in mind during Season 3, but something changed after the renewal for Season 4. Perhaps UPN asked for a change in the tone/direction of the show as a whole; the network had exercised influence over story content in the past. And after "Home," whatever plans might have been floated for T/T had to get ditched, and the writers had to work from "Home" onward.

When Koss took himself out of the mix in "Kir'Shara," in as contrived a fashion as he was inserted into the storyline in "Home," I thought the T/T storyline would be picked up again, now that the T'Plot Device was out of the way. Instead, "Daedalus" and T'Pol's pushing Traip away (out of character, IMHO, based on the events of "Home"), appeared to be another contrived effort to keep it on the back burner. Trip's decision to leave Enterprise in "The Aenar" because of profoundly self-oriented reasons (also seemed OOC to me) struck me as another contrivance.

It seemed to me that dangling plot threads from Season 3, such as Archer's psychological recovery from the Xindi war and T/T's relationship, were truncated or pushed aside, because there simply wasn't enough time to do everything. I understand "Home" was supposed to be a two-part episode, but it was pushed back to one, likely to make room for the aforementioned higher-objective stuff. And the season itself was cut from 24 episodes to 22: two less episodes to work with.

I remember reading in one or more interviews that Trinneer went to Coto at some point during the first half of Season 4 to express his dissatisfaction with the indecisions regarding the T/T relationship, and Coto told him he had an idea (the bond) that would move things forward. There was enough time to set up the bond in "Affliction/Divergence" before revealing it in "Bound," but with so little of the season left, and two episodes devoted to the pricey "IaMD," not much could be done with it afterward.

Regarding T/T, perhaps Coto et al were hoping that a miracle would come to pass, and the show would get a Season 5, so the derailed T/T storyline could get back on track. I believe Coto said in an interview that he would be working the T/T relationship in Season 5. But as Season 4 progressed, and the ratings didn't improve, the only pragmatic conclusion to be made was that S4 was the swan song of the series. People have posted here that "Demons"/"Terra Prime" was initially planned as a three-part arc, but scaled back to make room for TATV. One wonders if Coto had a very different ending in mind for Season 4--capitalizing on the bond, and T/T coming together in the wake of the baby Elizabeth storyline--to set up the Season 5 that never came to be.

Sure, a lot of this is speculation on my part. But looking at the state of T/T at the end of Season 3, and the jarring derailments of Season 4, I do think that a monkey wrench was thrown into the original plans for the season, and Coto and his staff likely did what they could with what they had. Any writer worth his salt would not have deliberately planned the overall T/T arc of Season 4 that we saw; a solid, effective, and satisfying structure organic to Season 3 just wasn't there.

The House of Tucker BBS kept very close track of interviews, rumors, and story developments during Season 4; someone who had the time to research the 2004-2005 threads there could, I'm sure, come up with sources for all of this stuff.

My .02
 
and Coto told him he had an idea (the bond) that would move things forward.
I remember Coto saying (sometime mid S4) that the resolution of TnT arc would be "radical" (the exact word he used), something never before seen on star trek. I guess you could call the bond "radical," but hardly unseen (Harry Kim & Tal in Voyager).

I think it's possible that Coto's ideas got somewhat smothered by someone above him in the 'food chain' (B&B's perhaps), but what I don't understand is why would anyone want to sabotage a TV romance. I mean, it's not like the subject was controversial or anything. It was just a tv pairing, nothing more.
 
Mach5 The only thing radical I could think of would be to kill off one or the other. A marraige scene would not be that radical as it had been done in one of the Trek movies, Riker and Troi.

Of course Trip or t-Pol suddenly breaking off and marrying someone else would be radical but that too had been done when she married Koss.

I guess I would go with a wedding as radical enough for Coto.
 
GBlews: Now, according to quotes attributed to her after season 3, Jolene wasn't happy about the season 3 state of T/T, I still think it was more of a cry out against the Beebs because she didn't say another negative word about T/T after Manny took over.
Here are some negative words. Re her relationship with Tucker by the end of Enterprise.

"There were a lot of feelings, but nothing ever happened," she observed. "Either make it a relationship or don't, but you can't walk this line forever."
This seems to be under Coto's watch as well and was said at the end of Enterprise in season 4.
Okay, a criticism, but not the kind she had at the end of season 3. Her criticism then was about the two characters being written into a romance and what she perceived as the T&A aspect of the romance. Her criticism of season 4 T/T had only to do with the "will they or won't they".

Jolene was no longer railing about the romantic nature of Trip and T'Pol's relationship, but that the romance was placed in a holding pattern.

I also believe that in true post "Moonlighting" T.V. world, the T/T romance would have continued as a tease in subsequent seasons (assuming 7 seasons) and we would not have seen the true final chapter until the end of show's run.
 
I think it's possible that Coto's ideas got somewhat smothered by someone above him in the 'food chain' (B&B's perhaps), but what I don't understand is why would anyone want to sabotage a TV romance. I mean, it's not like the subject was controversial or anything. It was just a tv pairing, nothing more.
Mach5: I heard a theory elsewhere (from someone we both know and love) that the B's (Berman in particular) were reluctant to allow Coto to take Trip & T'Pol's relationship to a marriage or even a committed relationship in order to protect the sanctity of Sarek and Amanda's status in Trek lore as pioneers in inter species marriage. This person went on to say that the reason they "killed" baby Elizabeth was to protect the Status of Spock as the premier Vulcan/Human. Their reasoning is that the larger Star Trek fan base would have totally rebelled.

Normally I would never listen to any theory this person had, but this one seemed to make sense to me. Nothing else could explain why they would create such a perfect romance (bad writing aside) an then never allow it to reach a conclusion. Why else would they write the creation of a child only to kill it. No one is that incompetent, it had to be intentional. It was Berman feeling that he had to protect the precious canon. Little did he know, JJ was going to take a dump all over it.
 
It was Berman feeling that he had to protect the precious canon. Little did he know, JJ was going to take a dump all over it.
I wouldn't say that JJ and the gang took a dump all over canon. They found a way around canon, and showed a great deal of respect to old Trek.

About that protecting the sanctity of Sarek/Amanda... That sh#t is lame on so many levels. There were millions of ways to make TnT work, without undermining Sarek/Amanda and what they meant to Trek lore. After all, after Terra Prime incident, TnT became a famous couple anyway.

The whole world saw baby Elisabeth during Paxton's transmission, and her funeral was practically a state function, so it's safe to assume that she and her parents hold an important place in Federation history (Elisabeth as the first Vulcan/Human offspring and TnT as the first publicly known Vulcan/Human couple). I mean, after Paxton pulled that stunt, Trip and T'Pol must have been all over Earth's media and stuff.
 
I wouldn't say that JJ and the gang took a dump all over canon. They found a way around canon, and showed a great deal of respect to old Trek.
I said that more for effect than anything else, it was probably too strong a statement. But I'm sure you get my point. If our friend's theory is correct, protecting the canon was pointless.

I'm sure you know I enjoyed the movie, but
as far as Paramount and JJ & Co feeding the fans the "Alternate Time Line",
I have strong opinions on the business aspect of the whole thing. However, that is for a different discussion.

About that protecting the sanctity of Sarek/Amanda... That sh#t is lame on so many levels. There were millions of ways to make TnT work, without undermining Sarek/Amanda and what they meant to Trek lore. After all, after Terra Prime incident, TnT became a famous couple anyway.

The whole world saw baby Elisabeth during Paxton's transmission, and her funeral was practically a state function, so it's safe to assume that she and her parents hold an important place in Federation history (Elisabeth as the first Vulcan/Human offspring and TnT as the first publicly known Vulcan/Human couple). I mean, after Paxton pulled that stunt, Trip and T'Pol must have been all over Earth's media and stuff.
I believe that in "The Good that Men Do" they confirmed what you say here. I agree, the way the whole thing was concluded was totally unnecessary.


[The movie spoiler protocols are in effect until June 8... --HR]
 
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It might not be fair to lay the Season 4 treatment of T/T solely at Coto's feet. Berman and Braga, as exec producers, still had final approval of episode content and scripts. It's quite possible UPN had its mitts in there as well.
I don't think so either. I think Jolene, rightly, puts blame in all seasons on pretty much all the writers, especially where her character is concerned: when she's not (to Jolene's specs) Vulcan and when she's just the T&A. And UPN (Les Monves) definitely had his mitts in there. I'll have to look it up, but there's a quote from Jolene that suggests old guys shouldn't dictate content, but instead play golf. Sure seems evident it's about him. (Sorry to not cite sources.)

Okay, a criticism, but not the kind she had at the end of season 3. Her criticism then was about the two characters being written into a romance and what she perceived as the T&A aspect of the romance. Her criticism of season 4 T/T had only to do with the "will they or won't they".
A timeless statement from TrekToday that isn't bound to season 3, imo:

"They write it, I do it. I don't see it, personally," Blalock told Kate O'Hare at Zap2it. "T'Pol's a Vulcan — how could she have a relationship? And he's so emotional. My goodness, he's like a nut case. So how are this nut case and this person who has her stuff together going to find common ground? Maybe that's the basis. We'll find out, because I'm not sure how that's going to evolve."
These are also from season 4, from TrekToday:

In an interview with Stuff Magazine, Blalock said she thinks her Vulcan character will be getting a guy. "And I think that man’s going to be Connor Trinneer’s character, Trip," she said.



However, she made it clear that her character's drug addiction might be part of her decision to get involved with the hot-headed engineer. "The writers have turned me onto...Trillium-D (sic)," Blalock said. "T’Pol is addicted to Trillium-D. Since my character is a drug addict, she’s no longer in control of her emotions. So because of the Trillium-D, she might begin a relationship."
In 2004, when she'd already received scripts season 4
Asked about the fate of T'Pol's relationship with Tucker, with whom she became intimate last season while exploring her emotions, Blalock said, "I think it's absolutely ridiculous that some catfish-eating honky-tonk guy would be appealing to this serene character, personally, but, you know, maybe there's something in the difference." She objected to the way the relationship came about last season, describing it as "'Hey, buddy, let's go do it.' Like, what is that?" and saying she would welcome more exploration if it evolved.



As she admitted at the UPN press tour last week, Blalock confirmed as well that dealing with T'Pol's emotions was difficult for her as a performer. "I kept asking a lot of questions to the producers and the writers. 'What do you mean by this? How far do you want me to go? Where's this coming from?' I really had to justify it to myself as an actor."
And TrekWeb:



STUFF: Is this the season T’Pol finally gets a man?

JOLENE: Yeah, I think so. And I think that man’s going to be Connor Trinneer’s character, Trip. The writers have turned me onto - oh, for Christ’s sake, what the fuck is it called? - Trillium-D. T’Pol is addicted to Trillium-D. Since my character is a drug addict, she’s no longer in control of her emotions. So because of the Trillium-D, she might begin a relationship.
I think honestly, Jolene is committed to her character being as Vulcan as possible and is disappointed with what happened and how it was resolved. I agree with her. She may not dislike Coto as much as Braga, but I think again she's just disappointed overall in where she was and where she landed. I don't blame her. If I were the actress, I'd also be disappointed.
 
I'll have to look it up, but there's a quote from Jolene that suggests old guys shouldn't dictate content, but instead play golf. Sure seems evident it's about him. (Sorry to not cite sources.)
That's hilarious. And hon, you don't have to get all OCD about sources. I'm just trying to cut down on the "I heard that so-and-so hated that such-and-such!" I don't have concrete links to offer all the time either, but when I personally laid eyes on or listened to an interview, I can offer that up as more than some...thing...that I heard...somewhere...making the rounds of the rumor mill, and not tied down to anything solid. The gossip that can morph into total silliness, like playing "telephone."

Or referring to some mysterious unnamed personage who believed (or knew, or theorized...I can't quite tell from the oblique wink-wink references, gentlemen :shifty: ) something or other about somesuch, and no wonder this other thing turned out the way it did! :vulcan: There's no there there.

"T'Pol's a Vulcan — how could she have a relationship? And he's so emotional..."
It sounds as if she wasn't really factoring in Sarek and Amanda there.

As she admitted at the UPN press tour last week, Blalock confirmed as well that dealing with T'Pol's emotions was difficult for her as a performer. "I kept asking a lot of questions to the producers and the writers. 'What do you mean by this? How far do you want me to go? Where's this coming from?' I really had to justify it to myself as an actor."
And there's Spock, a Vulcan wrestling with his emotional side, just as T'Pol had to wrestle with the emotions she had unleashed and couldn't put back in the box.

I sympathize with her, playing a Vulcan at war with herself. But I found T'Pol's situation compelling, precisely because I'd watched Spock do it for years.

She may not dislike Coto as much as Braga
She disliked Coto? I never ran across that. I could have sworn she spoke quite well of him during Season 4, but I'm afraid I don't remember where I read it. I listened to a radio interview she did on "Coast To Coast" late in Season 4, and she spoke highly of just about everyone she mentioned, and of the T/T relationship (I think they were filming the last few episodes). Alas, I don't remember if she mentioned Coto by name. I wasn't able to record the interview because our radio reception was crap. :(

Does anyone know of a transcript of that "Coast to Coast" interview? It was probably March 2005 or thereabouts...
 
I also believe that in true post "Moonlighting" T.V. world, the T/T romance would have continued as a tease in subsequent seasons (assuming 7 seasons) and we would not have seen the true final chapter until the end of show's run.

This has always been more or less my views on what happened with TnT. If only all the angsty, juicy bits would have been written with adults in mind, it may not have been so unbearable in places.
 
"T'Pol's a Vulcan — how could she have a relationship? And he's so emotional..."
It sounds as if she wasn't really factoring in Sarek and Amanda there.
Sounds to me she didn't really do her homework (TOS fan my ass).

Anyway, I think it's relatively unimportant what Jolene thinks of TnT. For example:

"Star Trek XI" introduced Spock/Uhura as a couple. A couple with apparently very strong mutual feelings, and I'm personally very interested in seeing how that evolves (and I doubt I'm in a minority here).

And just as everybody accepted this new "ship" as something firmly established, Zoe Saldana says this:

"Maybe in the sequel, I wouldn't mind giving it a go with Kirk. He's has those dreamy blue eyes. He brings a very interesting, rebellious manliness to the part."

Does this mean that nuTPTB should do Kirk/Uhura, just because Saldana doesn't give a shit about her character's pairing?
I don't think so. She is a pro, and she'll play the part as written, to the best of her abilities.

Blalock, on the other hand, acted like she owned T'Pol, and from what I've read in her interviews, I got the impression she mistook herself for Angelina Jolie, Julia Roberts or some other A-list celeb important enough to open her mouth and whine every time she had a problem with a script...
I mean, who the hell do you think you are, lady?
 
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According to "The Making of Star Trek" by Gene Roddenberry & Stephen Whitfield, 1968, p 224 (which I think it a pretty darn reliable source)

"Spock is the product of an interplanetary marriage between his mother, a native of earth, and his father, a Vulcan. While such marriages are not unknown, they are quite rare....."

Also, page 229 "conception and pregngncy when properly planned and controlled by technicians of thie highly advanced vulcan school of medicine can be brought to full term."

In E2 TPol tells Phlox that "humans and Vulcans have never been able to succesfully reproduce," when she finds out about Lorian. So apparently someone already tried that unsussessfully.

My point is that even by Enterprise's time there have been human Vulcan pairings, and that Spock was NOT the first human/Vulcan hybrid. Sarek/Amanda unusual, yeah, but not unique or groundbreaking. Trip & T'Pol were weren't even the FIRST.
 
According to "The Making of Star Trek" by Gene Roddenberry & Stephen Whitfield, 1968, p 224 (which I think it a pretty darn reliable source)

"Spock is the product of an interplanetary marriage between his mother, a native of earth, and his father, a Vulcan. While such marriages are not unknown, they are quite rare....."
Aikiweezie: thank you for providing this very authoritative source (and dare I say canon) for my case that Tucker & T'Pol should have married. However, the point I was making is that while it may be perfectly acceptable, if not preferred, for many Enterprise fans that Tucker & T'Pol to marry , I think it would have been rejected by the larger hard core fan base. Spock (as portrayed by Nimoy) is an icon. In previous debates I've participated in on this very subject, I was told that if Elizabeth had lived, it would have "cheapened" Spock. Quote: "we don't want to many Vulcan Human/Hybrids running around, Spock was special". I think this is what Berman felt he was up against and why he did what he did.

Also, page 229 "conception and pregnancy when properly planned and controlled by technicians of the highly advanced vulcan school of medicine can be brought to full term."

In E2 TPol tells Phlox that "humans and Vulcans have never been able to successfully reproduce," when she finds out about Lorian. So apparently someone already tried that unsuccessfully.

My point is that even by Enterprise's time there have been human Vulcan pairings, and that Spock was NOT the first human/Vulcan hybrid. Sarek/Amanda unusual, yeah, but not unique or groundbreaking. Trip & T'Pol were weren't even the FIRST.
True, but that was canon created by Enterprise, it's not TOS canon. This is where I think the rejection would have come in. You and I however, are on the same page.
 
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In E2 TPol tells Phlox that "humans and Vulcans have never been able to succesfully reproduce," when she finds out about Lorian. So apparently someone already tried that unsussessfully.
That line always bugged me. Your conclusion is only logical :vulcan: :)
 
Can't see why Hard core Fans should get thier Jaws Locked because TnT marry and perhaps have children. That doesn't take away from Spock or his parents.

After all TOS came years before Enterprise and it is set in stone in many peoples head.

They can pretend that TnT was lost in time and forgotten or some such.

How much has cme out about people who had been known as heros in our day but in their own period there were things that are just now coming out for us to see.

I go along with the BEEB's being at fault because they were chicken.
 
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