Consider this about Kirk's promotion...

[gastrof]

Teddy Roosevelt did something similar in 1905, advancing John J. Pershing four ranks from Captain to Brigadier General. And boy did it piss off those 835 officers he skipped! Not quite the same, I know, but there is a precedent for advancement under unusual conditions.

Not quite the same?

Sounds VERY much the same, and I love it when real world stuff turns out to support something in fiction that seemed totally silly.

Does make sense, tho'. After all, Kirk just saved the planet Earth from someone who'd already destroyed Vulcan and most of the Vulcan people. (Let's not forget Vulcan's place in the Federation scheme of things and its relationship with Earth.)

A whole mess of starships were DESTROYED by Nero, and Kirk not only saves Enterprise from the first smashfest, he ends up using that one remaining ship to totally wipe out the enemy.

No, nothing impressive or attention getting about it.

Good job bringing this out.

I'm now going to check to see if it's real or just something you made up.

 

[Vigilance]

^^^But Kirk was not an experienced officer like Pershing. He was a wet-behind-the-ears kid right outta the Academy. Not the same thing in any way.

You mean like how, at the age of 19 Augustus was one of the three leaders of the Roman Empire?

Or maybe how Bill Gates had already started a software company 2 years out of high school.

Or maybe how Alexander the Great led an army to crush a rebellion when he was 16?

Some people are just great.

Kirk, as the big damn hero of a heroic fictional universe, is one such person.

 

[PiperMaru22]

^^^But Kirk was not an experienced officer like Pershing. He was a wet-behind-the-ears kid right outta the Academy. Not the same thing in any way.

You mean like how, at the age of 19 Augustus was one of the three leaders of the Roman Empire?

Or maybe how Bill Gates had already started a software company 2 years out of high school.

Or maybe how Alexander the Great led an army to crush a rebellion when he was 16?

Some people are just great.

Kirk, as the big damn hero of a heroic fictional universe, is one such person.

This.

From a movie perspective, Kirk had to be captain at the end, because that's what your average viewer probably expects to see. From an in-movie perspective...we're talking about James T. Kirk here. After watching the entire TOS, all six TOS movies, this new movie, countless TOS spin-off books, and pretty much every Kirk reference ever in TNG/DS9/VOY it's obvious to me that Kirk is pretty much the 23rd century Big Damn Hero.

Also? It's not clear how much time lapsed between Nero's death and Kirk's promotion (Enterprise was apparently repaired, and I doubt that happened over night). Could've been days, weeks, months, whatever.

 

[J.T.B.]

J.T.B., as Dennis pointed out, Kirk has already accomplished saving the planet with a starship, so he can command one.

So basically your position is that those hours defeating Nero are the equivalent of the years of serving in different positions, additional training, seasoning and so on that most officers get in the ranks between ensign and captain. I'll ask again, why should we believe that commanding a starship in that time would be so much simpler a matter than commanding a warship today?

There is no historical data concerning promotion-as-reward for saving the planet; it's in a class by itself.

Well, obviously. It would make more sense to create a new award that is also in a class by itself, rather than put a person in a position of great responsibility beyond his experience level.

And Kirk did not save the day; he saved the planet. No bright people are going to resent him for that; the bright ones are going to congratulate him.

"Save the day" is a figure of speech. I didn't say they would resent him personally. They would resent the fact that their years of hard work and accomplishment had been outweighed by one heroic action.

Teddy Roosevelt did something similar in 1905, advancing John J. Pershing four ranks from Captain to Brigadier General. And boy did it piss off those 835 officers he skipped! Not quite the same, I know, but there is a precedent for advancement under unusual conditions.

Not quite the same?

Sounds VERY much the same, and I love it when real world stuff turns out to support something in fiction that seemed totally silly.

It's not the same at all. Pershing had been a commissioned officer for 19 years and had commanded units in combat in Cuba and the Philippines. At the time promotion in the army followed a strict seniority system, where even the most outstanding officers simply had to wait till their numbers came up. Roosevelt wanted more flexibility in the system and pushed for the army to promote Pershing to colonel. The army refused to change its practices, and so, since the president could appoint general officers, TR forced the issue by nominating Pershing for brigadier general and the senate approved.

It seems pretty obvious now that there is something wrong with a system that allowed an able officer to reach only the rank of captain in 19 years. TR was attempting to address that, and indeed the promotion system was reformed. It is also obvious that the situation is not comparable to what was depicted in the movie.

--Justin

 

[Cakes488]

The nuts and bolts of commanding a starship can be learned pretty quick, with a supportive crew -- which they certainly would be.

Interesting... It takes fifteen to twenty years to make a commanding officer (commander rank) of a frigate-size naval vessel today. Why do you think commanding a faster-than-light starship would be so much easier?



Your notion of using promotions as that kind of reward have historically proven to be very impractical. The skills needed to accomplish a small mission, however heroic, have little to do with those required to manage an operation as complex as a starship.

The only lower ranks who would resent him being made captain after doing so are not worth a spit. It's they whom the service does not need.

That is not realistic. Bright, accomplished, motivated people who had paid their dues would quite understandably be resentful that someone of less experience and attainment had been placed above them in professional standing. Sure, he saved the day, but who can say that none of the people he leapfrogged would have done as well in the same situation?

--Justin

Sums up my point of view exacly, well said.

I enjoyed the film but this promotion buisness was entirely Mary Sue/Gary Stu-ish. I can live with it but let's not fool ourselves.

Vons

Well I'm glad to see there are reasonable people speaking up and typing my exact same thoughts so now I don't have to! I liked the movie ...but come on people with this promotion crap -- You'll say anything to make things "fit"...... I can't understand how some of you love the movie so much that you fail to see it's shortcomings...hello...most movies nowadays fall short.........somewhere. I really feel like a lot of you are not being honest here.

 

[theFirebottle]

"Save the day" is a figure of speech. I didn't say they would resent him personally. They would resent the fact that their years of hard work and accomplishment had been outweighed by one heroic action.

If I were an Earth-born officer other than Kirk, once I stopped pissing my pants in terror at the knowledge of an entire planet and six billion people dying in the wink of an eye, and once I read the story about what happened and how close my planet came to going the same way, the very last thing on my mind would be petty resentment and whining about promotions.

EDIT:
I'd probably also have had friends on the ships destroyed at Vulcan. My own career prospects would suddenly be infinitely more dangerous and uncertain because of the sudden new weakness in the fleet and the complete upheaval of politics and diplomacy in the galaxy. Even if I were some desk jockey supply lieutenant, I'd probably be seeing some rapid promotions in the very near future anyway because of the drastic changes in force structure and distribution due to the loss of ships and personnel.

While we're speculating wildly about how other officers are gonna think about Kirk's promotion, let's inject some plausibility and context into the argument, okay?

 

[teacherbrock]

Kirk in TOS has saved the planet many times, and didn't get absolutely anything he wanted after any of those (indeed, in ST IV, he was *demoted*). So what makes this time any more special?

I can't say this enough times. I don't CARE what Kirk did - promoting him all the way to Captain in one go, cheapens the entire military command structure. If Kirk can skip all those lower ranks, it makes those ranks meaningless. It implies that officers who actually have those lower ranks, and earned them, don't matter - only Kirk does.

He did get what he wanted, in every occasion; and what was that might you ask?. 1) save earth 2) his command of Enterprise

What did he get in ST11? ....

That's right.

This movie is like STII-IV in reverse.

 

[Jeri]

J.T.B., defeating Nero and saving the planet is in a class by itself. There is no comparison to working up the ranks. There is no comparison to commanding a warship today.

Kirk proved he could command a starship and more. There is no comparison between saving the planet and anything on earth in our experience.

The position they gave him is commensurate with the job he was doing.

You won't find where I said the remainder viewed Kirk personally. The expression, "save the day," is symptomatic of not grasping the scope of the achievement.

cakes488, to quote Spock, labels are not arguments. And it's not reasonable to ignore the scope of Kirk's achievement.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I believe someone I don't remeber who said that Kirk would have been bumped up two ranks at the most to be believeable well lest consider two things.

1) In the novelization of the film Kirk was going to graduate at the rank of Lieutenant except Kobayashi maru legal matter which the admirals could have dismissed the case of and let Kirk graduate and get his rank.

2) There is NOT as near as I can tell in TOS a full Commander rank.

This means if Kirk had been promoted two ranks he WOULD be a Captain.

 

[BenRoethig]

Teddy Roosevelt did something similar in 1905, advancing John J. Pershing four ranks from Captain to Brigadier General. And boy did it piss off those 835 officers he skipped! Not quite the same, I know, but there is a precedent for advancement under unusual conditions.

Not quite the same?

Sounds VERY much the same, and I love it when real world stuff turns out to support something in fiction that seemed totally silly.

John J. Pershing: 19 (23 if you count west point) Year veteran with combat expirence who was stuck in the Captain rank because of no room for advancement in the system.

JJ-Kirk: Cadet who had not even graduated yet because he was suspended. Experience level of exactly one mission.

Difference: Including his academy days, Black Jack had spent two less years in uniform than Kirk had been alive.

 

[drmick]

Promoting a penultimate year cadet to Captain, is ridiculous. The End.

Him going straight to Lietenant in TOS was also seriously pushing it.

Question:

After Kirk, who is the next fastest/greatest promotion in Trek history?

 

[Jeri]

...Difference: Including his academy days, Black Jack had spent two less years in uniform than Kirk had been alive.

Difference: none of the others saved the planet.

 

[FailedLurker]

Question:

After Kirk, who is the next fastest/greatest promotion in Trek history?

Well, in the Prime universe, Picard became captain of the Stargazer at 28, though it's unknown if he was the record-holder at the time or if someone else had already become captain even younger. As of TNG Season One, the youngest person ever promoted to Captain was Tryla Scott. We don't know how young she was exactly, but she was at least (most?) younger than Picard's 28.

 

[drmick]

I'm going for Nog.

1st year cadet season 4.
Lt jg season 7.

 

[PiperMaru22]

Well I'm glad to see there are reasonable people speaking up and typing my exact same thoughts so now I don't have to! I liked the movie ...but come on people with this promotion crap -- You'll say anything to make things "fit"...... I can't understand how some of you love the movie so much that you fail to see it's shortcomings...hello...most movies nowadays fall short.........somewhere. I really feel like a lot of you are not being honest here.

Hey, it wasn't a perfect film. It had plenty of shortcomings, don't be me wrong. I just don't think Kirk's promotion at the end was one of them. In fact, that's the least of the problems with this movie.

 

[Overgeeked]

Wouldn't it be pretty damn hard for any captain to have Jim Kirk under his or her command?

I mean, the guy has saved Earth and avenged Vulcan, so he'd basically be a living legend around the Federation. He would have likely accomplished bigger things than any living captain currently in command of a starship.

It would be difficult, I think, for him to be subordinate to anyone. Not because he wouldn't be willing to follow orders, but because his very presence could overshadow the authority of any captain on any vessel he served on.

Maybe they really had no choice but to therefore give him the big job because I think the only alternative would have been to drum him out of Starfleet. And that wouldn't do either.

Being that guy that no one wants to work with because he pushes everyone out of his way and bullies his superior officers is not the best way to earn promotion. It's more typical that you'd get fired or dishonorably discharged. Certainly not promoted to Captain.

That it's difficult for him to be a subordinate is obvious, many people today have the same trouble. Difference is, they simply have to deal with it.

It's just a story. It's not supposed to be real, or even realistic. But it still strains the suspension of disbelief past the breaking point.

 

[theFirebottle]

But it still strains the suspension of disbelief past the breaking point.

No it doesn't. There are about a dozen different perfectly reasonable explanations and justifications that fit in just fine with what happens on screen. You're just ignoring them.

 

[Jeri]

That it's difficult for him to be a subordinate is obvious...But it still strains the suspension of disbelief past the breaking point.

Kirk's approach didn't strain Captain Pike's disbelief. Captain Pike said it was just what Starfleet needed more of.

 

[Cakes488]

...Difference: Including his academy days, Black Jack had spent two less years in uniform than Kirk had been alive.

Difference: none of the others saved the planet.

Yeah I know he saved the planet...but do we really care about the planet that much anyway...looking around in the world I think not since humans are very abusive to our mother earth...so this whole saving the planet thing...is totally overrated LOL.

Well I'm glad to see there are reasonable people speaking up and typing my exact same thoughts so now I don't have to! I liked the movie ...but come on people with this promotion crap -- You'll say anything to make things "fit"...... I can't understand how some of you love the movie so much that you fail to see it's shortcomings...hello...most movies nowadays fall short.........somewhere. I really feel like a lot of you are not being honest here.

Hey, it wasn't a perfect film. It had plenty of shortcomings, don't be me wrong. I just don't think Kirk's promotion at the end was one of them. In fact, that's the least of the problems with this movie.

Thank you for your honesty.....I don't think the promotion is that big of a deal either...but it did stretch me to the brink of believability....but I did "let it go".... I'd much prefer the majority of people to acknowledge that yeah it's pretty ridiculous instead of drudging things up from Teddy Roosevelt or saying and doing whatever, spending all day on google...just to try to prove a point.

That it's difficult for him to be a subordinate is obvious...But it still strains the suspension of disbelief past the breaking point.

Kirk's approach didn't strain Captain Pike's disbelief. Captain Pike said it was just what Starfleet needed more of.

You mean that Kirk's approach didn't strain the writers disbelief....

 

[theFirebottle]

I'd much prefer the majority of people to acknowledge that yeah it's pretty ridiculous instead of drudging things up from Teddy Roosevelt or saying and doing whatever, spending all day on google...just to try to prove a point.

So, you want everyone to acknowledge the greatness of your opinion without questioning, presenting alternatives, and backing up their positions?