Mary-Sue Analysis of Nu-Kirk

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Do they mention (the new) Starbuck anywhere in those sections? Because, damn, if anyone in modern TV or film fits the Mary Sue archetype...*

*I say this as someone who loved Starbuck. Nevertheless...

The real reason that so many characters can be made to fit the "Mary Sue archetype" is that no such thing exists - in truth it's a lazy, poorly-thought-out and beat-to-fit notion conceived decades ago without reference to any necessary understanding of literature or creative process and simply intended as a short-hand put-down of some fairly obviously bad fanzine writing of that day.

That it's persisted is simply a testament to a certain kind of fannish mentality that embraces jargon, in-jokes and slang as means of identifying other members of the group.

Again, the principle is simple: a group of people set apart may be a club or a ghetto, and the simple way to prove that you're a club is to keep someone out.

 

[Gepard]

The real reason that so many characters can be made to fit the "Mary Sue archetype" is that no such thing exists - in truth it's a lazy, poorly-thought-out and beat-to-fit notion conceived decades ago without reference to any necessary understanding of literature or creative process and simply intended as a short-hand put-down of some fairly obviously bad fanzine writing of that day.

That it's persisted is simply a testament to a certain kind of fannish mentality that embraces jargon, in-jokes and slang as means of identifying other members of the group.

Oh, Dennis, Dennis, Dennis...you just Jumped the Shark.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The real reason that so many characters can be made to fit the "Mary Sue archetype" is that no such thing exists - in truth it's a lazy, poorly-thought-out and beat-to-fit notion conceived decades ago without reference to any necessary understanding of literature or creative process and simply intended as a short-hand put-down of some fairly obviously bad fanzine writing of that day.

That it's persisted is simply a testament to a certain kind of fannish mentality that embraces jargon, in-jokes and slang as means of identifying other members of the group.

Oh, Dennis, Dennis, Dennis...you just Jumped the Shark.

Oh, so there is some nonsense that you buy into uncritically.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I'm not misusing it. Remember, the characters are to be compared with the other characters in the cast. It doesn't matter if 'all Vulcans have X' because we generally only HAVE the one Vulcan in the cast, and he's being compared to the human cast. (Spock as Mary Sue has actually been looked at before, as DC Fontana was notorious for this for a long time.)

You can't just context with the cast, you HAVE to context with the universe they exist in. Aliens with powers are common in the Trek universe.

Now if you were talking about a Q, or a Changeling, or another of the "uber-aliens", you might have a point.

I long ago accepted that, when you look at it, and REALLY look at it, Trek often pushes the credibility factor with its characters pretty damn far. TFSF alone adds huge pointage to Kirk and Spock, after all, and most people easily regard that movie as a pretty blatant fan-wank, even when they enjoy it.

I don't. It all made sense IN CONTEXT with the universe and the plot. Nothing was "handed" to either of them, as would be the case of a MS.

Now, this movie does it farther with Kirk, primarily to attract the 'young' audience, and then to force Kirk into the command chair in short order. It's a fairly rediculous contrivance and it really hurts the credibility of that character.

I will agree with you slightly here.

Come on, are you really going to tell me that these characters aren't pushing the Mary Sue definition quite strongly? If not, then why didn't Wesley Crusher get command of a starship after the 1st season of TNG? After all, he did even more to 'save the ship' and, hell, the Federation before he stepped foot in the academy...

Now WESLEY, you could legitimately argue is a MS. He IS "uber" in context of the universe, and is often gratuitously given plot-strokes by the writers.

 

[M'Sharak]

The real reason that so many characters can be made to fit the "Mary Sue archetype" is that no such thing exists - in truth it's a lazy, poorly-thought-out and beat-to-fit notion conceived decades ago without reference to any necessary understanding of literature or creative process and simply intended as a short-hand put-down of some fairly obviously bad fanzine writing of that day.

That it's persisted is simply a testament to a certain kind of fannish mentality that embraces jargon, in-jokes and slang as means of identifying other members of the group.

Oh, Dennis, Dennis, Dennis...you just Jumped the Shark.

And so, I think, has this thread. Closing, until I'm convinced that there is a reason for it to be otherwise.