Mary-Sue Analysis of Nu-Kirk

[Vance]

You still haven't proved, beyond the litmus tests, whether either Prime Spock or either Kirk are Gary Stu characters...

Okay...

Character S is one-of-a-kind human/alien hybrid.
He was made possible through a specific genetic project
He is the son of the high ambassador to Earth
He is from one of the most powerful noble familes of his planet
He has enchanced telepathic powers beyond anyone he works with, or anyone else on the ship.
He is smarter than anyone else on the ship.
He is stronger than anyone else on the ship.
He has a rare blood type.
He has female crewman fawning over him.
He has a troubled parental relationship which causes his exile from his home.
He is escaping an arranged marriage.
He has a rare and unique blood type.
He has all the benefits of being one race, and no weaknesses
He overcomes a racial limitation by force of will when no one else does
He is an expert in numerous sciences.
He knows several languages, and is fluent in all
He is immune to many things which harms everyone else on the ship
He is shown to have remarkable 'healing powers' that prevents serious harm from befalling him for long
He angsts about his mixed-breed heritage
He -is- a deux ex mechana on more than one occaision
He is a legend to his own people
He is a legend to the fleet
He constantly is praised for his abilities
He sacrifices himself many times
He dies, saving the main character and his ship
He is mourned by all of his peers
He is brought back from the dead
He outlives the main character
He becomes an important historical figure for later generations
He is revealed as a 'being of destiny'

How's that?

 

[-Brett-]

Skipping the parts I couldn't know being not-the-writer, and the parts that apply only to original, fan fic, and RPG characters (nuKirk isn't really any of them), even padding it, nuKirk only got a score of 47.

 

[theFirebottle]

You still haven't proved, beyond the litmus tests, whether either Prime Spock or either Kirk are Gary Stu characters...

Okay...

Character S is one-of-a-kind human/alien hybrid.
He was made possible through a specific genetic project
He is the son of the high ambassador to Earth
He is from one of the most powerful noble familes of his planet
He has enchanced telepathic powers beyond anyone he works with, or anyone else on the ship.
He is smarter than anyone else on the ship.
He is stronger than anyone else on the ship.
He has a rare blood type.
He has female crewman fawning over him.
He has a troubled parental relationship which causes his exile from his home.
He is escaping an arranged marriage.
He has a rare and unique blood type.
He has all the benefits of being one race, and no weaknesses
He overcomes a racial limitation by force of will when no one else does
He is an expert in numerous sciences.
He knows several languages, and is fluent in all
He is immune to many things which harms everyone else on the ship
He is shown to have remarkable 'healing powers' that prevents serious harm from befalling him for long
He angsts about his mixed-breed heritage
He -is- a deux ex mechana on more than one occaision
He is a legend to his own people
He is a legend to the fleet
He constantly is praised for his abilities
He sacrifices himself many times
He dies, saving the main character and his ship
He is mourned by all of his peers
He is brought back from the dead
He outlives the main character
He becomes an important historical figure for later generations
He is revealed as a 'being of destiny'

How's that?

That's just more litmus test crap.

How does he distort the plot and character dynamics, beyond the normal level expected of the 2IC of the crew? How is most of that list unrealistic, given the stated parameters of the universe (i.e. all Vulcans are stronger than humans on average, so counting his physical strength against him doesn't make sense)? How does he detract from the plots and characterizations of other characters in the story?

A Mary Sue character isn't just an exceptional person, a Mary Sue character is an exceptional person who is exceptional for the sake of stroking the writer's ego and forcing the story to revolve around something it should not. Keeping in mind that ALL Starfleet Academy graduates are not only experts in their fields, and usually multiple fields at that, and given four years of intensive training intended to equip them for everything space exploration could throw at them, is it unrealistic and story-distorting for Spock to be extraordinarily talented and intelligent?

Half of the things on that list are accompanied in-universe with their attendant drawbacks. He's got a rare blood type? If I remember correctly, that poses a serious threat to his life. He gets brought back from the dead? That plot wasn't roses and rainbows for anyone involved in it. He's the son of an ambassador? Geez, that didn't do him any favors - Starfleet doesn't seem to go in for nepotism. The writers don't treat Spock like some kind of demigod until he's been kicking around for long enough to have earned it from a lifetime of adventure and hard work. If Spock were a Gary Stu, the writers would be handing him these things on silver platters and letting him get away with murder while praising him for it.

EDIT: This is what I'm talking about with exemptions. A protagonist can't distort the story because the story is already designed to be written around the protagonist in the first place.

EDIT2: And that's what I meant originally by "using the test properly". The better litmus tests advise you IN THE DIRECTIONS not to take the characters out of their contexts. If your character is an alien in a universe where aliens are commonplace, you can't count it against him/her/it. If your character is an alien in a universe where aliens are rare... Sub in "genius" for "alien" in the context of Starfleet Academy, which is canonically the ultimate magnet school for "the best and the brightest".

 

[Vance]

Skipping the parts I couldn't know being not-the-writer, and the parts that apply only to original, fan fic, and RPG characters (nuKirk isn't really any of them), even padding it, nuKirk only got a score of 47.

I got 65, going through it again and ditching out the 'iffy' ones. NuKirk gets a LOT of his 'Mary Sue' points due to the initial background with the uncle and running away and all that, though.

Unlike Prime Spock, Kirk actually gets points down for his portrayal in the movies, where he 'acts his age' and has to do deal with his failures. Without them, the points may be a bit closer to one-another.

 

[Vance]

That's just more litmus test crap.

And since talking with you has turned into listening to someone saying 'la la la la la la' despite being provided proof of exactly what we've been talking about, we're done. See ya.

 

[theFirebottle]

That's just more litmus test crap.

And since talking with you has turned into listening to someone saying 'la la la la la la' despite being provided proof of exactly what we've been talking about, we're done. See ya.

Fine, I'm sick and fscking tired of beating my head up against the brick wall you five-percenters have built yourselves. It pisses me off that this forum is half nitpicky bitching, way out of proportion to your actual representation in the fandom.

I at least did you guys the courtesy of reading your entire posts.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

That's just more litmus test crap.

And since talking with you has turned into listening to someone saying 'la la la la la la' despite being provided proof of exactly what we've been talking about, we're done. See ya.

Vance, I've been a fan of your art for some time and I respect your opinion on other matters generally, but when you are actually MIS-using the test (according to the directions) then your opinion isn't going to be taken that seriously.

 

[Vance]

Vance, I've been a fan of your art for some time and I respect your opinion on other matters generally, but when you are actually MIS-using the test (according to the directions) then your opinion isn't going to be taken that seriously.

I'm not misusing it. Remember, the characters are to be compared with the other characters in the cast. It doesn't matter if 'all Vulcans have X' because we generally only HAVE the one Vulcan in the cast, and he's being compared to the human cast. (Spock as Mary Sue has actually been looked at before, as DC Fontana was notorious for this for a long time.)

So we look at the Kirks with relations to the cast and the setting rules around them, and they both break it pretty damningly (though nowhere near the level of Spock over his entire run).

I long ago accepted that, when you look at it, and REALLY look at it, Trek often pushes the credibility factor with its characters pretty damn far. TFSF alone adds huge pointage to Kirk and Spock, after all, and most people easily regard that movie as a pretty blatant fan-wank, even when they enjoy it.

Now, this movie does it farther with Kirk, primarily to attract the 'young' audience, and then to force Kirk into the command chair in short order. It's a fairly rediculous contrivance and it really hurts the credibility of that character.

Come on, are you really going to tell me that these characters aren't pushing the Mary Sue definition quite strongly? If not, then why didn't Wesley Crusher get command of a starship after the 1st season of TNG? After all, he did even more to 'save the ship' and, hell, the Federation before he stepped foot in the academy...

 

[Tentacle]

ohhh but wesley crusher had a destiny to explore new dimensions with the traveler.
just like kirk had a destiny to be in the captain chair

I wonder how wesley would do in this test.

 

[theFirebottle]

[
I long ago accepted that, when you look at it, and REALLY look at it, Trek often pushes the credibility factor with its characters pretty damn far.

...hello and welcome to Space Opera. One of the defining characteristics of the entire genre is epic characters.

Seriously though. When you take characters in their context, you can't just pick and choose what nuggets of context count or don't. Everything from the main cast to the entire genre to the broader culture and time period counts.

Or should we look at TOS Uhura as a character without thinking about the interesting racial and gender issues of the era her character was written in?

 

[Vance]

I wonder how wesley would do in this test.

I think it'll cause the browser to explode.

(Actually, considering the Rodenberry admitted that Wesley was his own fantasy about 'Boy Gene' on the Enterprise...)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

...we're done. See ya.

We've seen how long that's good for.

 

[Feofilakt]

...we're done. See ya.

We've seen how long that's good for.

Is that all you are capable of? Fucking pathetic.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I make the effort that's appropriate to the task, and waste little.

 

[Gepard]

I make the effort that's appropriate to the task, and waste little.

Shouldn't you be somewhere else then?

 

[Feofilakt]

I make the effort that's appropriate to the task, and waste little.

And in the process make yourself look like an obstinate fool and an imbecile. Congratulations, troll.

 

[theFirebottle]

I believe this sub-variant of the Mary Sue phenomenon may be germane to the discussion: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonSue

EDIT: Aaaaand the thread descends into namecalling. I'm going to bed, folks, got work in the AM. Gotta earn some more money to line the pockets of Abrams and co. over the weekend.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I make the effort that's appropriate to the task, and waste little.

Shouldn't you be somewhere else then?

Ah, but I am - that's the beauty of it.

 

[Feofilakt]

I believe this sub-variant of the Mary Sue phenomenon may be germane to the discussion: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonSue

EDIT: Aaaaand the thread descends into namecalling. I'm going to bed, folks, got work in the AM. Gotta earn some more money to line the pockets of Abrams and co. over the weekend.

That appears to be more valid, yeah. I'll have to think it over and come to a conclusion using the "CanonSue" as my new metric. I dunno, I may make a new thread regarding nuKirk and the CanonSue in relation to TOS era characters, I may be wrong in the end.

That'll have to wait though, I am eagerly awaiting the components for a new, epic computer

 

[Gepard]

I believe this sub-variant of the Mary Sue phenomenon may be germane to the discussion: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonSue

Do they mention (the new) Starbuck anywhere in those sections? Because, damn, if anyone in modern TV or film fits the Mary Sue archetype...*

*I say this as someone who loved Starbuck. Nevertheless...