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Spock's Conscience/Should Spock warn _____ about ______?


Erebus, knowing about something and having information about something is more beneficial then going into a situation completely and utterly blind. Since there's no guarantees this time around they'll be successful against the enemies and threats, then the Federation and Earth and billions of lives are literally on the line. I keep saying this and i'll say it again, it is not a game. Spock can't just switch it off or restart it, once the Federation and Earth is wiped out it's the end.
You do not just simply put your faith in someone to succeed, it's just not enough especially when billions of lives are at stake in a timeline where the future is unknown and the future is inevitably different.

The problem you have is that you're thinking of it from a writers point of view, "oh, we'll just do this this and this and they'll save the day". You need to think about it from the point of view of actually being in the Trek universe itself and not think of it as just a program you're watching. If the Trekverse was a reality then Spock's logical next step is to tell the Federation.

Also as I said before, each time we've seen alterations to the timeline the Federation has been on the brink of death ala 'Yesterdays Enterprise' or in ENT where Daniels took Archer to the future and the Earth was destroyed. If anything we should conclude that alterations to the timeline are a cause for serious concern when survival of the federation is concerned and we can't just take for granted that everything will be ok.

Spock should tell the Federation about future threats.
Anyway that's me out of the conversation now, i've made my position clear on this. ;)
 
and you can't say that even spock prime TOLD kirk that he (kirk prime) was the one who taught him that even changing the timeline is ok to fix things.

Yes, KirkPrime might be wrong too.

Kirk Prime may be wrong; but it may be too late for NuKirk...

Pike once told him before he started in the academy that his father George Kirk "Never Believed in the NO WIN sceanario" and now James Kirk believes the same thing...

NUKirk says.... "coming back in time, changing history. That's Cheating..."
Spock Prime responds: "A trick I learned from a old friend" then both give each other sly glances, when NuKirk remembers Spock Prime called him that old friend. and he gets a sly smile.

Yup yup yup... NuKirk now believes its ok to change time to win that no win sceanario. cuz he believes things wise people say to him.
 
Erebus, knowing about something and having information about something is more beneficial then going into a situation completely and utterly blind.

They are not blind, they have their abilities and faculties to reason and observe. Also knowledge can taint your awareness and doubly so if it is uncertain knowledge. Nothing is known here for sure, it is new.

Since there's no guarantees this time around they'll be successful against the enemies and threats, then the Federation and Earth and billions of lives are literally on the line. I keep saying this and i'll say it again, it is not a game. Spock can't just switch it off or restart it, once the Federation and Earth is wiped out it's the end.
You do not just simply put your faith in someone to succeed, it's just not enough especially when billions of lives are at stake in a timeline where the future is unknown and the future is inevitably different.

I know its not a game, that is why i am saying SpockPrimes's input may critically undermine the crews reaction-time and decision making facilites to deal with the reality of a unique situation.

The problem you have is that you're thinking of it from a writers point of view, "oh, we'll just do this this and this and they'll save the day". You need to think about it from the point of view of actually being in the Trek universe itself and not think of it as just a program you're watching. If the Trekverse was a reality then Spock's logical next step is to tell the Federation.

what i'm saying is that in order to make a logical argument you need to know all the steps. Since the situation is different, no manner of hindsight from Spock will be able to provide these. In a logical argument, any misstep or false premise can lead to catastropic conclusions. Therefore Spock's next logical step is to stay stum and let the universe play with its best chance of success - the proven wits of the crew.
 
(Tachyon Shield pardon me for the posting of just a "." earlier. (The edit save button is to close to the preview button for me :lol:). I have attempted to answer your points on the previous page and hopefully posted properly this time.)
 
and you can't say that even spock prime TOLD kirk that he (kirk prime) was the one who taught him that even changing the timeline is ok to fix things.

Yes, KirkPrime might be wrong too.

Kirk Prime may be wrong; but it may be too late for NuKirk...

Pike once told him before he started in the academy that his father George Kirk "Never Believed in the NO WIN sceanario" and now James Kirk believes the same thing...

NUKirk says.... "coming back in time, changing history. That's Cheating..."
Spock Prime responds: "A trick I learned from a old friend" then both give each other sly glances, when NuKirk remembers Spock Prime called him that old friend. and he gets a sly smile.

Yup yup yup... NuKirk now believes its ok to change time to win that no win sceanario. cuz he believes things wise people say to him.

Thus the damage from SpockPrime's big mouth begins. :lol:
 
Spock Prime needs to warn them about a short but embarrassing period in which Starfleet personnel were clad in velour uniforms. This must not be allowed to happen again!
 
Also as I said before, each time we've seen alterations to the timeline the Federation has been on the brink of death ala 'Yesterdays Enterprise' or in ENT where Daniels took Archer to the future and the Earth was destroyed. If anything we should conclude that alterations to the timeline are a cause for serious concern when survival of the federation is concerned and we can't just take for granted that everything will be ok.

Spock should tell the Federation about future threats.
Anyway that's me out of the conversation now, i've made my position clear on this. ;)

Yes, but often mismanagement can result in crises that require the drastic measures you have indicated. But i'm saying that shows not to introduce that very same crises-producing paradigm into the mix, and to let a form of management better adapted to this universe to evolve and so give the federation the opportunity to side-step those crises this time around.

There will be other crises very likely that require the drastic measures but at least they won't be somebody else's mistakes where you can't even consult the somebody else to help out.

Yes we shall agree to disagree, thank you for indulging me in a most enjoyable debate :techman:
 
Spock Prime needs to warn them about a short but embarrassing period in which Starfleet personnel were clad in velour uniforms. This must not be allowed to happen again!

It is likely that such a silly error will not be repeated by this more hip and sexy crew.
 
Spock Prime needs to warn them about a short but embarrassing period in which Starfleet personnel were clad in velour uniforms. This must not be allowed to happen again!

It is likely that such a silly error will not be repeated by this more hip and sexy crew.

Given the spandex uniforms on the Kelvin, in this timeline the unflattering uniform fashion occured a few decades early. Thankfully now the huskier Starfleet officer is less constricted.

Also i agree with everything you have said in the newly merged again thread 100%
 
Spock could warn them about everything that happened to him in time in Starfleet after all he pretty much saw it all. But with it being a nu-timeline, everything he did now could have changed. Though I could see it now 'By the way in about 20 years I'm going to die and Admiral Kirk will then steal the Enterprise as I'm not really dead and the end result will be the Enterprise being destroyed, but don't court martial him as this probe is going to come to Earth because you've driven Whales to extinction, see you later'
 
There is a difference between original Spock telling Starfleet how to solve all of its problems, and given them information about problems that they will have to solve. Yes, the Whale Probe and V'ger might be subtly different this time around, but even just knowing the general specifications and the general time and space coordinates for their reappearance could help Starfleet respond better, saving more lives. It would be not just foolish, but actively harmful, to the Federation for original Spock to remain silent.

Think of it like intelligence gathering. Yes, things may have changed since your spy reported back, or since you intercepted the message. In fact, the spy might even be lying, or the report might be a trap. But there has never been a situation where too much information has been the cause of a disaster.

Besides, who's to say the Enterprise will be around to deal with these problems to begin with? The Doomsday Machine is a great example; even if everything plays out exactly as it did before, by not warning Starfleet Spock has doomed the crew of the Constitution to death, and Matt Decker to madness. Maybe Decker, given some intelligence before the fact, could've dealt with the problem before the Enterprise even showed up, saving four hundred lives. Aren't those lives worth saving?
 
... but even just knowing the general specifications and the general time and space coordinates for their reappearance could help Starfleet respond better, saving more lives. It would be not just foolish, but actively harmful, to the Federation for original Spock to remain silent.

yes but if the specific coordinates and time are completely different from the general, they are caught in the wrong place and probably cannot do anything at all.

And also while they were sitting around waiting because they had pinned all their hopes on events repeating or at best distracted by the information, diverting maybe critical resources to that plan, they didn't think of the proper plan they should have if they were actually using their faculties on the actual data that was evident to them but was ignored.

Think of it like intelligence gathering. Yes, things may have changed since your spy reported back, or since you intercepted the message. In fact, the spy might even be lying, or the report might be a trap. But there has never been a situation where too much information has been the cause of a disaster.

There has been disaster when there has been misinformation which is what this could be. And there is a thing as too much information too, since resources and therefore opportunity is spent on information that will not contribute to the solution and may result on the critical information being missed due to wrongful prioritisation.
And the more information you have, the greater is the chance of miscommunicating it (eg Weapons of Mass Destruction).

In life and death stuggles, critical decisions and realisations can be fatally delayed or even omitted by being distracted from the reality of the situation by relying on redundant knowledge that can't reflect the situation because it happened in different circumstances. This is why starfleet expends energy on securing officers who can use intuition, because they need to be free to be perceptive to the situation on hand, not bogged down with redundent information.

Besides, who's to say the Enterprise will be around to deal with these problems to begin with? The Doomsday Machine is a great example; even if everything plays out exactly as it did before, by not warning Starfleet Spock has doomed the crew of the Constitution to death, and Matt Decker to madness. Maybe Decker, given some intelligence before the fact, could've dealt with the problem before the Enterprise even showed up, saving four hundred lives. Aren't those lives worth saving?

And maybe if Decker is given the intellegence, he fails to see another opportunity that he would have thought of if he had simply been allowed to do his job and use the abilities he demonstrated in acheiving his position: this new Decker is a product of a new timeline and therefore he will have different resources available to him. And also the encounter with the Doomsday machine is likely to happen in different circumstances as it will be met differently.

So the intellegence may have all manner of unforseen consequences, and if the solutions are limited, they could be missed. This could have a whole disasterous chain of consequences including the Constellations destruction.

Sometimes lives can be saved by inaction if you don't know what your actions might precipitate.

How do we know that in the previous timeline, that the sacrifice of the constellation prevented an even worse thing from happening? Or that the constellation could have been saved by an action that factors prevented from being revealed in the previous timeline but would be apparent due to the diffrences in this timeline if only the crew were allowed to be receptive to the actual situation?
 
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Spock could warn them about everything that happened to him in time in Starfleet after all he pretty much saw it all. But with it being a nu-timeline, everything he did now could have changed. Though I could see it now 'By the way in about 20 years I'm going to die and Admiral Kirk will then steal the Enterprise as I'm not really dead and the end result will be the Enterprise being destroyed, but don't court martial him as this probe is going to come to Earth because you've driven Whales to extinction, see you later'

Yes, how easy it would be to miscommunicate this knowledge and maybe make things even worse, notwithstanding that the information might be invalid in the first place.
 
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Re: Spock's Conscience

Now that Spock (Prime) is living in his past and rebuilding the Vulcan society... what will be his thoughts, goals, motivations and ethics regarding "polluting" or "saving" the timeline?

In other threads, folks have mentioned such forthcoming threats as the Space Amoeba, the Planet Destroyer, Kahn, the Borg...

What do you all think will be Spock's position on such things?

Will he remain a silent recluse?

Or will he spill the beans, doing his best to "right" his perceived "wrongs" and take this opportunnity to make his new timeline bigger and better...?

A FASCINATING topic...!!!

Spock isn't living in his past. His "past" is still in the timeline he came from. He's in a whole new reality now, one in which your examples listed above may not even come to pass. I think Spock will be more content in contributing to this new future as a guide and mentor instead of guarding against threads from the old.

Well said, your explanation is closest in accuracy.
 
Re: Spock's Conscience

Just wanted to point out that Section 31 isn't part of the Federation Charter, it's part of the Starfleet Charter. Starfleet preceded the Federation by what, 50 years? Starfleet was originally Earth's defense fleet. Have you guys not watched Enterprise? :p
 
Maybe Spock dies of old age before divulging any secrets? Or he disappears in a flash of light never to be seen again?


NuKirk: Hey, Old Spock! Did you hear about Admiral Pike? He's going to do training cruises with Cadets! Isn't that great.
Spock Prime: It would be highly..... (FLASHES OUT)

(SPOCK PRIME flashes back in and finds himself in the Transporter room of the ENTERPRISE-E)
Geordi: Thank god, we finally got you back! So what happened with you and Nero in that black hole?
Spock Prime: (Sigh)
 
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