I haven't listened to the commentaries yet, but what the fuck is Dochterman doing on the ST:TMP commentary?
ST:TMP - Lost Footage from the Trench
- Thread starter alchemist
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^Assuming the BluRay release is of the Director's Edition, then Daren Dochterman was the supervisor of its new visual effects.
Well, for starters he's worked with Robert Wise directly and he got to explore a lot of behind the scenes material which never resurfaced until the Director's Edition. And even though he technically has nothing to do with the Theatrical Version, he does bring in a ton of input into the commentary.
It's a pretty fun commentary track, though I can imagine it was difficult for him to talk about the Director's Edition since he's being asked to comment on the theatrical version only. There are some instances where the commentary will just stop dead in it's tracks. When the film introduces Bones to us, you can actually hear one guy say something interesting, and boom. Nothing for about a whole minute.
Really? Cause none of the shots I've seen have that Scotchlite look, which is basically the same trick I mentioned as used on Superman.
But Dochterman DID work on the bloody film.
And if you want to start complaining about participants, just look at the rest of the commentary tracks. With the exception of Stat Trek II, they're all done by people who had nothing at all to do with the movies!
Maybe not Scotchlite...but that's what I though Taylor told me...who knows. Probably lost to the ravages of time...I'd have to refer back to the interview. Although, as Trevanian said, they were covered in some kind of highly reflective 3M product...that much is certain. It is also certain that they were going to use (at least in part) on-stage lighting with rotating gels to create a pulsating light effect for them.
But Dochterman DID work on the bloody film.
And if you want to start complaining about participants, just look at the rest of the commentary tracks. With the exception of Stat Trek II, they're all done by people who had nothing at all to do with the movies!
Why shouldn't Docterman do a commentary? He's at least as elligible as the Okudas...
I don't remember whether or not the pyramids are lit in this particular image, but they definitely flash/blink/throb in the footage. It's not a dramatic effect, but definitely there. And this film certainly shows the pyramids glomming onto Kirk, but it was clearly shot in reverse, i.e., with the pyramids being pulled off of Shatner.
Best,
Dave
PS. Thanks, everyone, for being patient both with me and with the revisions to the website!
Not by a long shot.
But Dochterman DID work on the bloody film.
And if you want to start complaining about participants, just look at the rest of the commentary tracks. With the exception of Stat Trek II, they're all done by people who had nothing at all to do with the movies!
Why shouldn't Docterman do a commentary? He's at least as elligible as the Okudas...
The Okudas have been involved with Star Trek for a long time. Inspite of that, their angle on the films that weren't involved in is normally trivial, a few words in a documentary, a text commentary.
The audio commentary for the film should involve people directly involved in it, not some guy whose involvement was to add a bunch of shots that aren't even in the version being commented on. He had zero input on this version of the film.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
The pic in ART OF ST didn't look like scotchlite on them material either, but if they were even silvered a little, that would be enough to catch projected light, so maybe it was a half-measure effect.
Not by a long shot.But Dochterman DID work on the bloody film.
And if you want to start complaining about participants, just look at the rest of the commentary tracks. With the exception of Stat Trek II, they're all done by people who had nothing at all to do with the movies!
Why shouldn't Docterman do a commentary? He's at least as elligible as the Okudas...
The Okudas have been involved with Star Trek for a long time. Inspite of that, their angle on the films that weren't involved in is normally trivial, a few words in a documentary, a text commentary.
The audio commentary for the film should involve people directly involved in it, not some guy whose involvement was to add a bunch of shots that aren't even in the version being commented on. He had zero input on this version of the film.
I maintain he's as qualified as they are. The Okudas didn't work on it either; neither did Dochterman work on the theatrical version -- but he at least has SOME connection to it.
The Okudas are basically known for creating the graphics for the TNG graphics -- the "Okudagrams". There aren't any of those in TMP. Aside from that, they are known as "superfans" -- basically fans who got lucky and were able to convert that fandom into a career working on the show they love. Additionally, they again got lucky and were able to parlay that into contributing/writing Trek books as well and have recently come to be known as "Trek Historians".
To merely do commentaries because you are fan or a "Trek Historian" doesn't make them any more qualified than me. I can say I've been a fan since age 4 or 5 and that makes me elligible...because I also have a vast wealth of Trek knowledge -- earned through generations of exposure, reading, watching, knowing people who worked on it, etc. I just haven't written a book or worked on a TV series or film(s).
But I don't think that makes me elligible.
Bottom line: Dochterman made a serious and integral contribution to the alternate version so why shouldn't he be elligible for doing a commentary? He's also a "superfan" in that he was a fan before working on Star Trek...and likely has a vast wealth of knowledge as well.
I think he's quite qualified to do a commentary. You don't. Agree to disagree I guess...
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I've already said it may not have been Scotchlite...but it seems like I recall reading or hearing that from more than one source (RT may have told me that...and it may have been referenced in the Cinefex articles as well; you know how long ago that was...so, if my memory is not clear sue me. LOL!!! It was 1981. I've read them since 1981 -- but not much more recently. LOL!!!) that it was.
Could be wrong though. It happens once or twice every decade or so...
There's a line in Solow and Justman's "Inside Star Trek" where they recall knowing when an editor had trouble with the film he was cutting when they found footprints on the finished reels
There's a line in Solow and Justman's "Inside Star Trek" where they recall knowing when an editor had trouble with the film he was cutting when they found footprints on the finished reels
ARGGGH!!!
I'd have gone Christian Bale on his arse!!!
You've clearly never met me.Agree to disagree I guess...
The Okudas were relegated to trivial input while the creators of the film commented on what they did. Fair enough.
Dochterman is on the audio commentary of a film he has absolutely no connection to, whatsoever, beyond talking to Robert Wise 20 years after he made it. He wasn't there, did nothing, knows nothing aside information given to him 20 years after the fact.
Put trevanian on the commentary if that's the requirement. He has far more insight on the same level as Dochterman.
^ It appears, though, that they felt obligated to put new commentaries on the Blu Ray's and didn't think they could drum up enough of the people connected to the film. From what I've seen online, here's the lineup of commentaries on Blu Ray:
TMP: Michael & Denise Okuda, Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Daren Dochterman
TWOK: Nicholas Meyer & Manny Coto
TSFS: Ronald D. Moore & Michael Taylor
TVH: Roberto Orci & Alex Kurtzman
TFF: Michael & Denise Okuda, Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Daren Dochterman
TUC: Larry Nemecek & Ira Steven Behr
Out of all of those, Nicholas Meyer is the only one who was involved in the making of the film in question, and even he was paired with Manny Coto. These folks may have some interesting things to say, but I think they could have done alot better.
How about hearing from some of the surviving cast members other than Shatner and Nimoy? How about some of the producers like Ralph Winter? How about some commentary from Harve Bennett on any of the three films of his that he hasn't done commentary on? Etc. There's lots of ground to cover without having to bring in people with no connection to the films.
TMP: Michael & Denise Okuda, Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Daren Dochterman
TWOK: Nicholas Meyer & Manny Coto
TSFS: Ronald D. Moore & Michael Taylor
TVH: Roberto Orci & Alex Kurtzman
TFF: Michael & Denise Okuda, Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Daren Dochterman
TUC: Larry Nemecek & Ira Steven Behr
Out of all of those, Nicholas Meyer is the only one who was involved in the making of the film in question, and even he was paired with Manny Coto. These folks may have some interesting things to say, but I think they could have done alot better.
How about hearing from some of the surviving cast members other than Shatner and Nimoy? How about some of the producers like Ralph Winter? How about some commentary from Harve Bennett on any of the three films of his that he hasn't done commentary on? Etc. There's lots of ground to cover without having to bring in people with no connection to the films.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Ralph Winter would be a terrific choice for TWOK onwards, since he was very hands-on, especially on the VFX end, plus he survived beyond Bennett to do TUC.
Winter has worked on more vfx-oriented movies than just about any producer I can think of (I was pitching a 'feature producing the vfx film' book in the late-90s with the idea he would have been the key to the thing, bridging pre- and post-digital solutions.)
But for TWOK, the main commentary guy SHOULD have been Robert Sallin. I have a feeling based on the old interviews that he would be very good about crediting folks who seem to get overlooked re: TWOK some of the time, like Minor and Bjo.
Then again, this whole release seems to be a band-aid to hold people over till the next go-round, when they will have new transfers for the other 5 and probably different cuts, along with the digital noise reduction being turned down to something less destructive. So I guess those releases will get the bigger commentary guns.
Winter has worked on more vfx-oriented movies than just about any producer I can think of (I was pitching a 'feature producing the vfx film' book in the late-90s with the idea he would have been the key to the thing, bridging pre- and post-digital solutions.)
But for TWOK, the main commentary guy SHOULD have been Robert Sallin. I have a feeling based on the old interviews that he would be very good about crediting folks who seem to get overlooked re: TWOK some of the time, like Minor and Bjo.
Then again, this whole release seems to be a band-aid to hold people over till the next go-round, when they will have new transfers for the other 5 and probably different cuts, along with the digital noise reduction being turned down to something less destructive. So I guess those releases will get the bigger commentary guns.
Besides talking to Robert Wise 20 years after he made it? Elton, he worked on the bloody Director's Edition! He didn't just talk to Robert Wise, he was DIRECTED by Robert Wise!
He's 100 times more qualified to talk about the film than Ronald D. Moore, Michael Taylor, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, Larry Nemecek, Ira Steven Behr Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens and Manny Coto. These people had nothing to do with the movies they're watching, so why aren't you arguing over that?
You shouldn't be taking these issues too seriously. Just accept the fact that these are just fan commentaries put on the BluRays for entertainment purposes. And for all intents and purposes, they are entertaining.
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