I think this alternate universe is screwed (spoilers)

[Australis]

In this alternate timeline, Vger will approach Earth in search of its creator . . . and fall into the black hole that swallowed the Narada. Earth is saved!

A decade and a bit later, the Probe will approach Earth in search of whales . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Eventually, someone at Starfleet Command will go "Hmm! I think we might be onto something here . . . "

Almost a century later, a Borg cube will approach Earth to assimilate its population. It will find a giant sign in space proclaiming "WARNING: CONSTRUCTION AHEAD. PLEASE FOLLOW ALTERNATE ROUTE." Being the law-abiding chaps that they are, the Borg will take the recommended diversion . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Sorry to rain on your parade, but in case no one's said it already, the Enterprise and Narada jumped away from the solar system before the black hole was initiated. A black hole in the solar system, even a small one, could mess things up big time.

 

[KendraW]

We've seen in the original timeline that the Federation just barely fights off some of its biggest rivals. But with Vulcan destroyed in the alternate timeline, you've got to be believe that the Federation is significantly weaker. Vulcan was one of the most important members in the Federation and the most technologically advanced prior to its founding. (Think NATO without the US or UK).

Even if the Federation isn't overrun by the Klingons or Romulans. What chance are they going to have against the Borg, or the Dominion?

I just think its kinda ironic to save Earth from Nero, but that it will probably end up getting assimilated one day.

If I was Spock prime, knowing what I know about the Federation's future conflicts, I'd start working on a way to get back to my own universe. Or I'd tell the alternate Enterprise crew to start looking for that reset button!

I'm a fan of the importance of Vulcan, so i will agree. Though it's not gonna play out like that (in my head), Vulcan's are gonna team up with other colony members and rebuild with the help of other federation members on another planet, what is the point of being in a federation like that if no one helps out when your planet is destroyed. Go vulcan.

 

[Cheebo]

Well you're not thinking about ALL of the ramifications. It's possible now that the Federation might not meet the Borg for a long time after when they did. remember, Q flung the Enterprise-D into the Delta Quadrant which is where they met the Borg and the Borg got a "taste" of the federation. It was either Q or someone else that said we weren't supposed to meet the Borg yet, so it's possible that the Borg aren't encountered for some time.
You have to think of it as the butterfly effect. One thing has changed, the destruction of Vulcan, many many unforeseeable outcomes will arraise from it. (namely writers can do whatever they want) Though I think certain things should still be in place, V'ger visits Earth looking for it's creator, The Whale Probe visits Earth, but those will have different outcomes now depending on all the actions that lead up to it.

I think the Whale Probe is gonna fuck us over. Just think of what needed to happen in order for the Enterprise crew to save the day!

Kirk had to maroon Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Years later, Chekov had to rediscover Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Khan had to steal the Genesis device. Spock had to die. Spock had to be reborn on the Genesis planet. Commander Kruge had to try and steal Genesis. Kirk had to blow up the Enterprise and steal a Bird of Prey. They had to take the Bird of Prey all the way to Vulcan (which doesn't EXIST ANYMORE!). Then they had to fly home to Earth, only to be stopped on their way and figure out that the transmission from the Probe was the sound of humpback whales.

That Probe will destroy us all.

Or Spock could analyze the whale song like he did before and have the Enterprise go back in time, beam down a landing party and have the ship wait out of range of Earth's sensor's while they get what is needed.

voila.

 

[Lt. Trull]

O Clone those be damned whales.... we have the samples, there are science storage facilities just for storing animal dna.... you could clone several thousand by the time the probe shows up. they may not be the songs he's use to... but it said itself.... he's into hearing new songs...

 

[PiperMaru22]

I find it hard to believe only ten thousand Vulcans survived.

Vulcans are a space-faring race- no doubt with other colonies.

there was probly tens of thousands of Vulcans on Earth, without talking of other major planets.

there could be millions of vulcans off-world at the time of vulcans destruction.

the population of vulcan is 6 billion- assuming that only 1 in a thousand vulcans are off-world at any one time-(be that on spaceships, space stations, moons, colonies, planets) that alone is 6 million vulcans.

I think this is an interesting point. I'd really like some clarity on Spock's ten thousand estimate here. Does he mean ten thousand rescued from Vulcan before it was destroyed? Ten thousand Vulcans running around the Vulcan star system, on various moons and colonies, or what exactly?

While I think the loss of Vulcan (and potentially 6 billion people) is very, very devastating (especially long term as a few on this thread have pointed out), but I think that if say 6 million survived overall as opposed to the ten thousand mentioned in the movie, then I think that is somewhat hopeful (or more hopeful than the movie makes it out to be).

Because with ten thousand I'm thinking, it'll be hard to repopulate and keep their civilization maintained/growing, but with 6 million the changes of this are better. Not to say it will be easy, it won't be, and it might take centuries, but I think it's more encouraging to have 6 million survivors than it is to have ten thousand. Plus there are the elders that the Enterprise rescued, so surely that has to count for something? I think

Added bonus -they've got Prime Spock, who should have enough sense to let everyone in on V'Ger and whale searching probes.

 

[Semah]

In this alternate timeline, Vger will approach Earth in search of its creator . . . and fall into the black hole that swallowed the Narada. Earth is saved!

A decade and a bit later, the Probe will approach Earth in search of whales . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Eventually, someone at Starfleet Command will go "Hmm! I think we might be onto something here . . . "

Almost a century later, a Borg cube will approach Earth to assimilate its population. It will find a giant sign in space proclaiming "WARNING: CONSTRUCTION AHEAD. PLEASE FOLLOW ALTERNATE ROUTE." Being the law-abiding chaps that they are, the Borg will take the recommended diversion . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Genius

 

[RoJoHen]

Well you're not thinking about ALL of the ramifications. It's possible now that the Federation might not meet the Borg for a long time after when they did. remember, Q flung the Enterprise-D into the Delta Quadrant which is where they met the Borg and the Borg got a "taste" of the federation. It was either Q or someone else that said we weren't supposed to meet the Borg yet, so it's possible that the Borg aren't encountered for some time.
You have to think of it as the butterfly effect. One thing has changed, the destruction of Vulcan, many many unforeseeable outcomes will arraise from it. (namely writers can do whatever they want) Though I think certain things should still be in place, V'ger visits Earth looking for it's creator, The Whale Probe visits Earth, but those will have different outcomes now depending on all the actions that lead up to it.

I think the Whale Probe is gonna fuck us over. Just think of what needed to happen in order for the Enterprise crew to save the day!

Kirk had to maroon Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Years later, Chekov had to rediscover Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Khan had to steal the Genesis device. Spock had to die. Spock had to be reborn on the Genesis planet. Commander Kruge had to try and steal Genesis. Kirk had to blow up the Enterprise and steal a Bird of Prey. They had to take the Bird of Prey all the way to Vulcan (which doesn't EXIST ANYMORE!). Then they had to fly home to Earth, only to be stopped on their way and figure out that the transmission from the Probe was the sound of humpback whales.

That Probe will destroy us all.

Or Spock could analyze the whale song like he did before and have the Enterprise go back in time, beam down a landing party and have the ship wait out of range of Earth's sensor's while they get what is needed.

voila.

You are absolutely no fun at all.

 

[Star Treks]

So you are postulating that the reason Kirk beat the Whale Probe and Picard beat the Borg is because the planet Vulcan existed?

I think that's a flawed theory. If anything Starfleet is stronger now that ever because they have fought borg tech in Nero's ship and they also have Spock Prime's amazing brain full of knowledge of the future.

Sorry if this has been discussed, but how do we know there's Borg tech in Nero's ship?

I haven't read them, may I guess it's in the Countdown Comics? Because I don't remember anything on screen about this...

 

[RoJoHen]

So you are postulating that the reason Kirk beat the Whale Probe and Picard beat the Borg is because the planet Vulcan existed?

I think that's a flawed theory. If anything Starfleet is stronger now that ever because they have fought borg tech in Nero's ship and they also have Spock Prime's amazing brain full of knowledge of the future.

Sorry if this has been discussed, but how do we know there's Borg tech in Nero's ship?

I haven't read them, may I guess it's in the Countdown Comics? Because I don't remember anything on screen about this...

Yeah, it's in the comic.

 

[Prydonian]

In this alternate timeline, Vger will approach Earth in search of its creator . . . and fall into the black hole that swallowed the Narada. Earth is saved!

A decade and a bit later, the Probe will approach Earth in search of whales . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Eventually, someone at Starfleet Command will go "Hmm! I think we might be onto something here . . . "

Almost a century later, a Borg cube will approach Earth to assimilate its population. It will find a giant sign in space proclaiming "WARNING: CONSTRUCTION AHEAD. PLEASE FOLLOW ALTERNATE ROUTE." Being the law-abiding chaps that they are, the Borg will take the recommended diversion . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Sorry to rain on your parade, but in case no one's said it already, the Enterprise and Narada jumped away from the solar system before the black hole was initiated. A black hole in the solar system, even a small one, could mess things up big time.

Oh, I knew that.

I just never let the facts get in the way of a cheap laugh!

 

[God Magnus]

I've been rattling this around in my head for a while now, and as much as I can buy into the "gloom and doom" version where the Federation goes boom, another part of my brain can come up with tons of plot contrivances that would make everything a-ok.

The problem is that while we know the Klingons lost a ton of ships, we really don't know the status of any of the other races such as the Andorians, Gorn, Romulans etc. In the 25 years between the Kelvin's destruction and Kirk's time, a lot could have changed with the galaxy's power structure that differs from what we saw in TOS.

Considering JJ is aiming for making "Optimism cool again", I would say that the next movie will in some way address the issue of "What the heck is the Federation gonna do now?" At least, I hope it does. Realistically I agree the Federation is in horrible shape, but Trek has always tried to push a message of hope, and I would like to see follow up stories that reflect that.

 

[barnaclelapse]

So you are postulating that the reason Kirk beat the Whale Probe and Picard beat the Borg is because the planet Vulcan existed?

I think that's a flawed theory. If anything Starfleet is stronger now that ever because they have fought borg tech in Nero's ship and they also have Spock Prime's amazing brain full of knowledge of the future.

Yeah, and what's cool about that are the possible consequences that could come of those two things. I will say that there's a lot of really interesting and obvious storytelling potential in this new universe.

 

[Australis]

In this alternate timeline, Vger will approach Earth in search of its creator . . . and fall into the black hole that swallowed the Narada. Earth is saved!

A decade and a bit later, the Probe will approach Earth in search of whales . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Eventually, someone at Starfleet Command will go "Hmm! I think we might be onto something here . . . "

Almost a century later, a Borg cube will approach Earth to assimilate its population. It will find a giant sign in space proclaiming "WARNING: CONSTRUCTION AHEAD. PLEASE FOLLOW ALTERNATE ROUTE." Being the law-abiding chaps that they are, the Borg will take the recommended diversion . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Sorry to rain on your parade, but in case no one's said it already, the Enterprise and Narada jumped away from the solar system before the black hole was initiated. A black hole in the solar system, even a small one, could mess things up big time.

Oh, I knew that.

I just never let the facts get in the way of a cheap laugh!

Ah, gotcha!

Or, of course we could put up one helluva Alternate Route sign

 

[seigezunt]

It is not.

Now it has TWO Spocks!

 

[M'Sharak]

We've seen in the original timeline that the Federation just barely fights off some of its biggest rivals. But with Vulcan destroyed <snip>

And right now, throught out the world, most people, NORMAL people, could give a flying F about what you just wrote. This movie is trying to increase the possibility that some of our TREK friends will have sex at least ONCE in their lives. This kind of Thread only sets us back...

You know, Rob, if you had read beyond the first post (did you even bother to read beyond the thread title?) you would have found that there's actually a pretty interesting and occasionally amusing speculative discussion going on. Dropping the sort of drive-by snipe you have here is something I'd rather not see. If you're not going to be part the conversation, then just don't say anything.

...

What the fuck?

Normal ppl? What? You think you know me? You think cuz I say a few negative comments about ur favourite movie, I don't have a life now?

For the record, I like this movie, and like RoJoHen said, this is all for fun. But I guess some ppl duno how to have a little fun. <snip>

Robert deSoto, the smart thing to do would have been to stop right there, or not to have responded at all and simply moved on with the discussion. Instead, with the defensive tirade which followed, you let him (and everyone else here) know that he'd struck a nerve. That just makes you look bad, but this:

Yeah I know you got a son, I feel bad for him having you as a role model. And yea thats great you got a wife, who still has to go to work while you sit on your ass enjoying retirement. Women, no matter what kind of bullshit they feed you about love and relationships, they always go for guys that have the good jobs, lots of money and drive fancy cars. But if your wife doesnt mind supporting the family while you sit home and play video games. Well then, she must be very special....or just fucking butt ugly and fat as a whale

...amounts to a direct personal jab at another poster and could probably be warned as trolling. Perhaps unwisely, I'm not going to issue a warning at this time, but I do not want to see anything like that from you again.

Now, let's see if we can get back on track with the Vulcan/alternate universe topic, shall we?

 

[skep155]

I really dont buy into the idea that the Federation is doomed now Vulcan is destroyed. Were talking about an interstellar government that spans thousands of light years, presumably millions of stars, tens of thousands of colony worlds and dozens of member species. A planet of 6 billion slipping off the interstellar radar would probably be the equivelent for the Federation of what 9/11 was to the western world. A big wake up call, but the very fabric of society didn't come apart.

 

[Flamegrape]

Oh my God. I feel like I'm one of the very few who hated that Vulcan was destroyed. I still haven't been given a good reason why this was a good idea.

But I hadn't given any thought to the crippling political implications that Vulcan's destruction would have. That planet, with it's advanced culture and technology, was a primary cornerstone to the Federation. It's casual destruction could be absolutely devastating.

Excellent points, Robert DeSoto. And Feofilakt's historical insight is chilling. Thank you, M'Sharak, for what you said.

With the Vulcan genocide, there are indeed massive implications. I've been so dismayed with the event in and of itself that I hadn't considered the ripple effect that it will have.

There could very well be massive war and the Federation could very easily collapse. There really isn't any other plot line that is realistic for the next movie. The Andorians would certainly flex their muscle because they always hated the Vulcans. The Klingons could see the destruction of Vulcan as an opportunity to expand their empire. The Romulans could do anything.

Feofilakt is right. What planet would want to join a Federation that had one of their primary planets destroyed? After this incident, all other planets and interstellar states would be in a panic.

At this point, it just isn't realistic to go boldly where no man has gone before. The Federation is on the fast track to war and collapse. But maybe that's a good thing. Since the general public seems to favor action over cerebral plot lines, war will probably sell more tickets. No more "wagon train to the stars."

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Oh my God. I feel like I'm one of the very few who hated that Vulcan was destroyed. I still haven't been given a good reason why this was a good idea.

But I hadn't given any thought to the crippling political implications that Vulcan's destruction would have. That planet, with it's advanced culture and technology, was a primary cornerstone to the Federation. It's casual destruction could be absolutely devastating.

You have answered your own question with, perhaps, the best reason it was a good idea.

Something so devastating must be the source of profound changes within the Federation. Many interesting changes.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Were talking about an interstellar government that spans thousands of light years, presumably millions of stars, tens of thousands of colony worlds and dozens of member species.

None of this is really given. We know that there were around 150 members in the late 24th century, so given that growth would probably be exponential, there's probably only 30 member planets at this time. Since only 10,000 Vulcans were said to have survived, that doesn't say much about the number of colonies. If humans sent out a colony ship of 1,000 people every year since the Federation was formed, it would only be roughly 100,000 people plus their offspring. That's a drop in the bucket compared to billions of lives. Simply put, colonies aren't going to be formed in large numbers, and they are going to be weaker and less influential in the Federation's economy.

A planet of 6 billion slipping off the interstellar radar would probably be the equivelent for the Federation of what 9/11 was to the western world. A big wake up call, but the very fabric of society didn't come apart.

A planet being destroyed cannot be compared to 9/11, period. Your implication that they are similar in death toll implies that the Federation would be comprised of 600 trillion individuals. Since that would imply 10,000 planets just like Vulcan, we know that isn't at all reasonable.

A better analogy, like I mentioned earlier, would be if all of New York was destroyed. That would be a huge hit on the economy, and if we knew that the future contained pivotal battles in a war, the US would probably not be successful in those battles.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Actually, I think it would be more like what if an entire country was destroyed. Maybe Japan or Great Britain might be a good comparison, with the US being the Federation.