Exactly Trek would've never lasteed without it's Ideals. The 60's and know the 2000's are all about humanity ready to kill. It was about grander Ideas when we consider all of us brothers and would not be ready to do so. But that's all quaint for the young ones that want blood.
Not rescuing Nero: thumbs up or down?
- Thread starter Franklin
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Exactly Trek would've never lasteed without it's Ideals. The 60's and know the 2000's are all about humanity ready to kill. It was about grander Ideas when we consider all of us brothers and would not be ready to do so. But that's all quaint for the young ones that want blood.
Have you ever watched a Star Trek show before? That makes you no better than him which have annihilated every Vulcans because he hold them responsible for the death of his people and family.
No, I'm better cos I'm not evil. And wouldn't have the deaths of an entire planet on my resume -- unlike Nero.
He deserved to die. Kirk made the only logical decision. He probably only offered to save him because Spock was standing there...
This guy Nero isn't even on the same level as the Romulan Cmndr in Balance of Terror. At least that guy was just following orders...and destroyed a military target -- not a planet full of innocent civilians.
Yup. Nero had to die.
And horribly.
What to do with Nero now that his ship was disabled and being destroyed could've been the defining moment of the movie. Hell, it even could've been an allegory to what's going on today. Do we blast the hell out of the guy -- we know he's guilty -- or try to bring him to justice? There are pros and cons for both points of view.
A "better" Trek (hey, believe it or not I LIKED this movie) would've at least had a moment or two of dialog between Kirk and Spock to this end. "If we leave him and his crew here to die...," or some mention of "vigilante justice," and all that. Just a tad of moral ambiguity about it.
And, hey, it's always better to take someone live if you can than to risk making him a martyr.
Pretty good list of what he's done, and yet everyone keeps forgetting to mention that he altered the timeline. Untold billions who once lived, now do not.
And as someone else said, Nero's ship passed through a black hole before with no damage....the weapons were insanely powerful compared to the 23rd century's, so it made sense to make sure the threat was ended completely.
There's being compassionate...there's being the better man and offering a hand to save those who tried to kill you....and then there's just being a fool and not knowing when to put a rabid dog, who will stop at nothing to kill you, down.
Okay, we have different interpretations of how that scene would have ended, because for me an unstable black hole made up of all the red matter stuff, when just a drop was all that was needed before, would be more than enough to destroy the Narada. Also, whether it would have destroyed it or not, the Narada at that point wasn't fighting.
(At least as I remember it - I've only seen the movie once).
All I can say is, to me it felt wrong.
Plus, it would have given us a golden opportunity for Scotty to should "She cannae take it Captain" as they tried to pull the Narada out
I agree that it's not the end of the world that they aren't injecting the Humanistic philosophy into the reboot, but the ending was almost offensive to me. They could have killed Nero without making Spock look blood-thirsty.
They may not be the same people from TOS, but they are still Starfleet officers and members of the Federation. That alone should have stopped them from enacting revenge on Nero, and making a good faith effort to bring him in alive to be held accountable for his crime.
Crimes.Nero broke a helluva lot of laws,and murdered billions like he was ordering takeout.Showing compassion before a man who knows the gross error of his ways is not what's happening here.This is no Khan who stole a ship,or a shinzon who murdered his own government.This is a man who has shown zero pause in committing genocide on the drop of a hat,and he has made it clear he won't change.Criminals like that belong in the ground,not in jails.
In the context of the movie,the Narada was a threat to the safety of everyone in the Federation and Alpha quadrant at large.Deep-sixing the Narada was a necessity,even if he did surrender at the end. All the better that Nero decided to stay aboard.
That maybe your worldview, but it used not to be Trek's.
(And neither is it the worldview in large parts of the world nowadays... countries with the death penalty are in the minority.)
Before beaming over, Kirk told Sulu to fire on the Narada if he thought he had the tactical advantage. That's what Kirk is doing. This is a massively superior enemy who has initiated aggression, caught in what could be only temporary vulnerability. It's not practical to only fight until you've just barely evened the odds - you shoot to kill.
Now, did Kirk and Spock truly believe that Nero was neutralized? Staging a rescue of a helpless, compliant person from a black hole must be hard enough, I'd imagine. Getting someone out who wants to kill you just puts your own life and ship in jeopardy.
Now, did Kirk and Spock truly believe that Nero was neutralized? Staging a rescue of a helpless, compliant person from a black hole must be hard enough, I'd imagine. Getting someone out who wants to kill you just puts your own life and ship in jeopardy.
Heres a nother question that Black Hole near the edge of our Sol System, does it burn itself out since its man made or is that a big hazard for a while
It loiters at the edge of our solar system until the Enterprise, years later having conveniently forgotten about it, gets caught in its gravitational field forcing it to use its warp engines to slingshot around it to escape. Upon awakening the crew discover they have been catapulted back in time to the 1960's and are attacked by a U.S.A.F. fighter interceptor. They then beam the pilot.....
Well, no, he didn't surrender. He was asked to surrender (effectively), and he declined.
Just a few things in response to some of the above.
First, no, no, no! These are NOT NEW CHARACTERS! They are the SAME CHARACTERS experiencing life in an altered timeline. They have the same DNA, same hard-wiring, and same personalities. To the extent that they are different, it is because of different stimuli. Those stimuli alone should not be enough to change who a person basically is and how they would respond to similar situations.
Second, if the Narada was going to travel in time because of the black hole, then is that what happened to Vulcan? It was something specifically to do with the black hole created by collapsing the Hobus star that caused Nero and Spock to travel in time. They were spectators to the event, not directly subjected to the red matter. The Narada was collapsing on itself, having been directly subjected to the red matter. Perhaps by the movie's logic, the Enterprise may have experienced time travel if it had stayed caught in gravitational field of the black hole.
Third, a lot of vigilantes must post here.
Look at it this way, Spock was representing all of Vulcan when he decided Nero's fate. Does it speak well for the legacy of Vulcan and its philosophy that he made the decision he did? I'm not saying a rescue would've worked, or that Nero wouldn't have tried to thwart it, but bloodlust? Eye for an eye? Is that the Vulcan way? Does he now feel his mother's death is avenged? That's Spock?
Fourth, the Narada was breaking up because of the red matter. I don't believe it was even fighting back any more. As a threat, it may have posed the same threat as a dying rattlesnake (as in it could still lash out), but it was very much in the process of being neutralized by the red matter. They could've moved to a safe distance and watch it being consumed if a rescue attempt would've been too dangerous. They did not have to essentially sit there and fire slugs into it.
First, no, no, no! These are NOT NEW CHARACTERS! They are the SAME CHARACTERS experiencing life in an altered timeline. They have the same DNA, same hard-wiring, and same personalities. To the extent that they are different, it is because of different stimuli. Those stimuli alone should not be enough to change who a person basically is and how they would respond to similar situations.
Second, if the Narada was going to travel in time because of the black hole, then is that what happened to Vulcan? It was something specifically to do with the black hole created by collapsing the Hobus star that caused Nero and Spock to travel in time. They were spectators to the event, not directly subjected to the red matter. The Narada was collapsing on itself, having been directly subjected to the red matter. Perhaps by the movie's logic, the Enterprise may have experienced time travel if it had stayed caught in gravitational field of the black hole.
Third, a lot of vigilantes must post here.
Look at it this way, Spock was representing all of Vulcan when he decided Nero's fate. Does it speak well for the legacy of Vulcan and its philosophy that he made the decision he did? I'm not saying a rescue would've worked, or that Nero wouldn't have tried to thwart it, but bloodlust? Eye for an eye? Is that the Vulcan way? Does he now feel his mother's death is avenged? That's Spock?Fourth, the Narada was breaking up because of the red matter. I don't believe it was even fighting back any more. As a threat, it may have posed the same threat as a dying rattlesnake (as in it could still lash out), but it was very much in the process of being neutralized by the red matter. They could've moved to a safe distance and watch it being consumed if a rescue attempt would've been too dangerous. They did not have to essentially sit there and fire slugs into it.
Hell, yeah!!
Uh...if you think killing Kirk's father who was a role model, and I believe the reason he even joined Starfleet in the original timeline wouldn't cause a major shift in personality, I don't even know how to respond. Sure, they all have the same DNA, but experiences most certainly also shape personality and these characters have very different experiences. If that's not the case then twins who have something like 99.95% genetically identical compositions would act 99.95% similar.
Maybe they were just pissed at Marvel. After all, we gave them our Picard, and what do we get in return? Their old discarded Hulk.
You know I just realized something Kirk could have fired on Nero as a percausion in case Nero tried to take them with him.
But this is what is exciting. The Federation is a benevolent Empire and as Military in that Empire Kirk and Spock did the right thing - especially with such a dangerous enemy. Lets leave the wishy washy morality in the other timeline.
The next movie should deal with the power-grab of the Romulan Empire by the Federation because the Klingons and everyone else will do the same.
Which would have made a lot more sense and been a lot more consistent with the characters...if they had a reason to believe Nero was capable of taking them with him.
