Opinions about Trip and T'Pol

[Mach5]

I was appalled by the Morning After scene in Harbinger. I've seen some posters attribute her "sexperiment" remark as evidence that what happened the night before scared her. I don't buy it.

Funny, that's exactly what I always believed was the case. T'Pol lost control, let go, liked it (a little too much) than panicked and felt ashamed because her deed went against everything that her culture deemed proper.

I don't think I'd want to wait until the last season. I'd prefer to see a marriage toward the end of season 5;

But what kind of chain of command would it be if the XO and a second officer were husband and wife? I would have preferred if they did their thing discretely (on-screen though), and gotten married at the very end of the shows run (sorta like icing on the cake).

then one night toward the end of season 7 T'Pol wakes up one morning with a wild case of pon far ...

...and Star Trek Enterprise gets picked up by 'Hustler TV'

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I don't mind the Season 3 storyline for Trip and T'Pol. I think it was a good setup for a Season 4 where they would attempt to forge a romantic relationship (whether it was derailed or whatever). And though I can see arguments for and against the lovemaking in "Harbinger," I had no problem with the "morning after" scene. To me, T'Pol looked to me as if she was backpedaling because she didn't know how to handle the emotions she had unleashed (sorry, JiNX, I'm one of those posters ), and I like how Trip handled it--not stalking away in a snit but choosing to be patient with her (because she was worth it). The episodes after that were a bit pushme-pullyou, but the two seemed on solid ground by "Zero Hour."

The characters seemed pretty much in character (to me) until "Daedalus." What we saw in "Home" (mutual affection, Trip's sacrifice and desire to support T'Pol) and "The Augments" (she missed his friendship) didn't seem consistent with the now-free-of-Koss T'Pol telling Trip in "Daedalus" that she needed time alone to work out her identity crisis.

Even if one rationalized that T'Pol swung the pendulum too far the other way and tried to be an uber-Vulcan, it didn't seem in character for her to shut Trip out completely, which she seemed to do after "Kir'Shara." I agree that the damage she suffered from the trellium could easily have been brought up as the reason for her mood shifts, whether she confessed to Trip (or even Archer, who was friend to them both), or it came up in conversation with Phlox. But that storyline was tossed after the presto-change-o T'Pau mind-meld in "Kir'Shara."

Then Trip runs away to Columbia, which (to me) seemed out of character for him. I wish there had been a more substantial reason for him to leave than his inability to cope emotionally with a relationship that was on the skids. One would think that a guy who stood by supportively as the woman he loved married another man would be emotionally tough enough to deal with being on the same ship as his lost love. (At least, the romantic in me wanted to see that.)

If Hernandez had asked to borrow Trip to help get Columbia launched, and that's why he left--and then the bond manifested itself, and T'Pol got a clue and realized she needed to find a balance between her new Vulcan identity and the post-trellium emotions she now had to incorporate into her life... I think that might have been a compelling way to take the storyline. There would still have been plenty of fodder for conflict (necessary for drama), without that soap opera vibe.

There was good material in scenes like "The Augments" Romeo & Juliet talk, and the one between Trip and Phlox in "The Aenar" where Trip is trying to figure out how to deal with his feelings about T'Pol, and the quiet little talks between T'Pol and Phlox about her emotional struggles. In a different context--with the characters staying true to what was set up in "E2" about T'Pol's emotions, and in "Home" regarding Trip's desire to be a supportive presence--I think such scenes would have been great ways to illustrate two people trying to cope with the circumstances (Koss, trellium) that had pulled them apart against their will.

Instead, they took turns bailing on each other. It just didn't feel right to me.

There was potential for a very interesting Season 4 T/T arc, quietly running parallel to the "A" storylines that TPTB were doing to try to keep the show alive. If someone had worked out a season-long story arc for them, properly structured, and nurtured it...but I think the writers were juggling too many plates, and this was a plate that got dropped. They got the relationship back on track by "Terra Prime," which was a good setup for a Season 5 storyline, where they would really attempt to forge a romantic relationship... Ah well.

 

[Mach5]

The characters seemed pretty much in character (to me) until "Daedalus." What we saw in "Home" (mutual affection, Trip's sacrifice and desire to support T'Pol) and "The Augments" (she missed his friendship) didn't seem consistent with the now-free-of-Koss T'Pol telling Trip in "Daedalus" that she needed time alone to work out her identity crisis.

While I really didn't like "Daedalus," and I especially disliked that "I'm going through something" scene, I think T'Pol's state of mind can be pretty much understandable. Her mother died in her arms after telling her that she did "all that" so her daughter can once again become a true Vulcan. T'Pol was most likely flooded with guilt and regret, and desperately wanted to fit in among her people once again (by the time she resigned from the high command she had already been a genuine outcast). She was desperate to reconnect with her logic and structure, and her feelings for Trip were a serious obstacle. He was, in essence, an embodiment of the very thing she wanted to escape from - emotion.

Then Trip runs away to Columbia, which (to me) seemed out of character for him. I wish there had been a more substantial reason for him to leave than his inability to cope emotionally with a relationship that was on the skids. One would think that a guy who stood by supportively as the woman he loved married another man would be emotionally tough enough to deal with being on the same ship as his lost love. (At least, the romantic in me wanted to see that.)

I had no problem with him jumping ship, but I did have a problem with that "Not everything in my life revolves around you" blow off line. Actually, what annoyed the hell out of me was Trip's constant fear of confrontation.

[One of the reasons I loved Farscape so much were the confrontations. The was never any hair on anyone's tongues on that show.]

 

[JiNX-01]

I was appalled by the Morning After scene in Harbinger. I've seen some posters attribute her "sexperiment" remark as evidence that what happened the night before scared her. I don't buy it.

Funny, that's exactly what I always believed was the case. T'Pol lost control, let go, liked it (a little too much) than panicked and felt ashamed because her deed went against everything that her culture deemed proper.

I don't think I'd want to wait until the last season. I'd prefer to see a marriage toward the end of season 5;

But what kind of chain of command would it be if the XO and a second officer were husband and wife? I would have preferred if they did their thing discretely (on-screen though), and gotten married at the very end of the shows run (sorta like icing on the cake).

then one night toward the end of season 7 T'Pol wakes up one morning with a wild case of pon far ...

...and Star Trek Enterprise gets picked up by 'Hustler TV'

Ahem... my pon faar suggestion was to raise the promise of a little Tucker in oven...

 

[Mach5]

Ahem... my pon faar suggestion was to raise the promise of a little Tucker in oven...

Couldn't they've conceived this little Tucker outside of pon farr?

 

[JiNX-01]

Ahem... my pon faar suggestion was to raise the promise of a little Tucker in oven...

Couldn't they've conceived this little Tucker outside of pon farr?

Based on Spock's comparison of pon faar to salmon swimming upstream to spawn, NO. If it makes you feel better, it could be inferred before and after without having a repeat of "Bounty." Does that help?

 

[Mach5]

^ Yeah, but Spock also said that 22nd century starships had no means of visual communication and particle/antimatter weapons...

 

[JiNX-01]

I had no problem with the "morning after" scene. To me, T'Pol looked to me as if she was backpedaling because she didn't know how to handle the emotions she had unleashed (sorry, JiNX, I'm one of those posters ), and I like how Trip handled it ... choosing to be patient with her (because she was worth it). The episodes after that were a bit pushme-pullyou, but the two seemed on solid ground by "Zero Hour."

T'Pol was TOO OLD to be playing the role of rueful teenager. It was just plain ridiculous. And then in the episodes that follow (E2 -- where she wouldn't even trust her older self's advice -- and the near entirety of season 4) it got even worse.

 

[lceb]

T'Pol was TOO OLD to be playing the role of rueful teenager. It was just plain ridiculous. And then in the episodes that follow (E2 -- where she wouldn't even trust her older self's advice -- and the near entirety of season 4) it got even worse.

T'Pol was old enough, but she had less experience of romantic relationships than any teenager, if there is a part of the brain that manages these things, hers must have been completely underdeveloped.
I find the way she was slowly "corrupted" by emotion fascinating and I can understand she went through phases and changes of opinion, I can even understand the trellium addiction. I think that Trip must have been in awe of T'Pol for a very long time, coming close to her but unsure of his feelings, so during Harbinger he was seduced not really understanding the meaning of it. They kept getting closer, but I believe him when he said that he finally realized he was in love at Home when T’Pol said she was getting married.
I cannot say it was just bad writing during S4 or that they acted OOC at times, because very nice people hurt each other very much when in love until the moment that each comes to terms with his/hers feelings and makes final decisions about the relationship. We saw such a moment at the end of Terra Prime, they were finally together.
If there was to be a S5 I would have liked to see normal things, spending some romantic time, some misunderstandings due to different cultures, some angst because of external danger etc, whatever, as long as they stay together.

 

[Penguin]

Chronolicaly T-Pol ws old(er) but physically she was young.

If you believe, as I do, that when T-Pol seduced Trip she was a virgin then she may have panicked because she had no experience with Sex and was startled by the emotions it aroused.

Problem is that unlike the fight scenes and the Alein escape scenes the Seduction was abrupt and we never had a chance to se what happened with Trip and t-Pol when they were in the bunk. What was said.

T-Pol seduced trip for good reasons in her mind. Jealousy of Cole, fright of losing Trip to her and then finding out that her love of Trip casued the first two emotionns.

Trip probablY Initially thought he had died and gone to heaven. but he too would hve realized that there more than just sex involved that he loved the woman he was in bed with.

The morning after didn't make any sense as T-Pol still was a logical Vulcan and would not be given to panic of the Teen aged kind.

It is the missing scenes that should have been shown that would clear things up.

 

[JiNX-01]

I go with what I saw on screen. Unfortunately, what I saw ticked me off.

 

[pookha]

^ Yeah, but Spock also said that 22nd century starships had no means of visual communication and particle/antimatter weapons...

he said there was no face to face contact with the romulans.
we have already seen that enterprise didnt have the means of seeing into another ship unless there was was an active view screen on the other side.

so for there be no face to face contact it just ment the romulans didnt allow it.
though i always had issues with that stuf considering bodies would have been blown out into space during battles.

but for trip and tpol..
i always thought tpol was if not scared concerned..
and they both wond up unitentionaly confusing the other.

the inner vulcan id came out and played a part in what happened in harbinger.
it isnt my fav episode but i think the intent was that tpol saw her connection to trip threatened so she went ahead and "claimed" him.

dealing with this would be a hard thing for her to absorb.

so she falls back onto the exploration thing which isnt the same thing as trip's word experiment.

an exploration suggests some thing far more long term and in depth then just a casual experiment.
but trip who has made comments about his difficulties with women all the way back in oasis and other places took the insecure route and heard experiment in his head..

 

[commodore64]

I had no problem with the "morning after" scene. To me, T'Pol looked to me as if she was backpedaling because she didn't know how to handle the emotions she had unleashed (sorry, JiNX, I'm one of those posters ), and I like how Trip handled it ... choosing to be patient with her (because she was worth it). The episodes after that were a bit pushme-pullyou, but the two seemed on solid ground by "Zero Hour."

T'Pol was TOO OLD to be playing the role of rueful teenager. It was just plain ridiculous. And then in the episodes that follow (E2 -- where she wouldn't even trust her older self's advice -- and the near entirety of season 4) it got even worse.

Not only too old, but isn't she supposed to be Vulcan? Rueful teenager for a Romulan? Sure. Rueful teenager for a Vulcan? Illogical.

I think they definitely could have gone a certain way with the pairing. I'm not sure what on Earth possessed them to go the direction they did. I agree with you Jinx, I think I've read better fanfic that puts the couple together.

 

[commodore64]

Of course there is A/T'P fanfic by Trip haters. News flash: there are also A/T'P stories by people who don't hate Trip. I've written two of them. Of course there are avatars that are pro A/T'P and anti-Trip. But guess what--there are also plenty that make fun of A/T'P, and Archer. You believe Archer is treated courteously at T/TP fanfic sites? Then you haven't seen the sites I've gone to. Archer-bashing is a favorite pasttime of some T/T shippers, and Archer has been written as a fool in plenty of T/T fics.

Just as a clarification, very few A/T'Pers hate Tucker. We may not think he's the best character or the second best character, but we don't hate him. I think he has an important part on Enterprise. I've tied to clarify that, I suppose it reads as: Yeah, Commodore64 hates him. I'm not sure why. I wonder if sometimes being a fan of Archer automatically means I hate Trip. It's too bad.

Someone asked about my signature.I'm wondering if this is the best place to respond. I'll try to make that clear too hoping like hell it doesn't read: Yeah, C64 just wants to have Scott Bakula's children.
1. It may surprise you that I didn't want Archer or T'Pol to have a relationship with each other during Enterprise. So, in that regard I was quite pleased. I thought it would be best if a relationship was alluded to in the last episode. It's possibly one of the reasons I'm happy with TATV. I think there's certainly an open door.
2. I like bookends in writing. Broken Bow starts with Archer hating T'Pol and vice versa. He hates her species and she thinks his (humans) are a bunch of bumbling children. I like from a writing standpoint that *they* care about each other. It evolves their characters to fill voids that hurt their characters.
3. Archer is Kirk. T'Pol is Spock. What better way to show Vulcans and humans as friends than with a relationship?
4. Kirk after Janice Rand's actress is fired claims he's married to his ship. I like the idea of: what prompted Kirk to believe that? Did Kirk witness a forbidden love amongst the highest ranks and determine it was impossible?

I'm foremost interested in the plot of the main character, whom I like best. I think a relationship introduced at the tale end of ENT finishes his Hero's Journey.

Regardless of liking A/T'P, it doesn't always come down to that.

 

[Aikiweezie]

I don't mind the Season 3 storyline for Trip and T'Pol. I think it was a good setup for a Season 4 where they would attempt to forge a romantic relationship (whether it was derailed or whatever). And though I can see arguments for and against the lovemaking in "Harbinger," I had no problem with the "morning after" scene. To me, T'Pol looked to me as if she was backpedaling because she didn't know how to handle the emotions she had unleashed (sorry, JiNX, I'm one of those posters ), and I like how Trip handled it--not stalking away in a snit but choosing to be patient with her (because she was worth it). The episodes after that were a bit pushme-pullyou, but the two seemed on solid ground by "Zero Hour."

The characters seemed pretty much in character (to me) until "Daedalus." What we saw in "Home" (mutual affection, Trip's sacrifice and desire to support T'Pol) and "The Augments" (she missed his friendship) didn't seem consistent with the now-free-of-Koss T'Pol telling Trip in "Daedalus" that she needed time alone to work out her identity crisis.

Even if one rationalized that T'Pol swung the pendulum too far the other way and tried to be an uber-Vulcan, it didn't seem in character for her to shut Trip out completely, which she seemed to do after "Kir'Shara." I agree that the damage she suffered from the trellium could easily have been brought up as the reason for her mood shifts, whether she confessed to Trip (or even Archer, who was friend to them both), or it came up in conversation with Phlox. But that storyline was tossed after the presto-change-o T'Pau mind-meld in "Kir'Shara."

Then Trip runs away to Columbia, which (to me) seemed out of character for him. I wish there had been a more substantial reason for him to leave than his inability to cope emotionally with a relationship that was on the skids. One would think that a guy who stood by supportively as the woman he loved married another man would be emotionally tough enough to deal with being on the same ship as his lost love. (At least, the romantic in me wanted to see that.)

If Hernandez had asked to borrow Trip to help get Columbia launched, and that's why he left--and then the bond manifested itself, and T'Pol got a clue and realized she needed to find a balance between her new Vulcan identity and the post-trellium emotions she now had to incorporate into her life... I think that might have been a compelling way to take the storyline. There would still have been plenty of fodder for conflict (necessary for drama), without that soap opera vibe.

There was good material in scenes like "The Augments" Romeo & Juliet talk, and the one between Trip and Phlox in "The Aenar" where Trip is trying to figure out how to deal with his feelings about T'Pol, and the quiet little talks between T'Pol and Phlox about her emotional struggles. In a different context--with the characters staying true to what was set up in "E2" about T'Pol's emotions, and in "Home" regarding Trip's desire to be a supportive presence--I think such scenes would have been great ways to illustrate two people trying to cope with the circumstances (Koss, trellium) that had pulled them apart against their will.

Instead, they took turns bailing on each other. It just didn't feel right to me.

There was potential for a very interesting Season 4 T/T arc, quietly running parallel to the "A" storylines that TPTB were doing to try to keep the show alive. If someone had worked out a season-long story arc for them, properly structured, and nurtured it...but I think the writers were juggling too many plates, and this was a plate that got dropped. They got the relationship back on track by "Terra Prime," which was a good setup for a Season 5 storyline, where they would really attempt to forge a romantic relationship... Ah well.

I pretty much agree with everything you said.

I also heard the quote from Connor Trineer that it was his idea to break T & T up, but I thought that he was only referring to the time she was married, not permanently.

Also from what I read Manny Coto said that if the series were to continue they would have been together, AND B & B (I will NEVER forgive them) said Trip wouldn't have been killed off.

I just started watching the series in reruns. I hate that it was cancelled after only four seasons It was just hitting its stride! And I would have loved to see where they took the T & T romance.

As for chemistry - they are swimming in it - no matter what Jolene Blalock said about Trip's character. I am watching in HD on our big tv, and there are some very sweet and sexy subtleties between those two. They played it beautifully. There are several times where T'Pol's eyes get all teary and her breathing gets fast - stuff you'd miss normally.

As far as TETV - their "explanation" of their "breakup" was L A M E.

 

[Mach5]

As far as TETV - their "explanation" of their "breakup" was L A M E.

I wasn't aware that there was an explanation ()

 

[Aikiweezie]

I stand corrected, Mach5. You are right of course, there WAS no explanation. In TATV T'Pol said (in a very uninterested dispassionate way) that their romantic relationship ended six years ago. Just like that - Poof, over, done. Which would of course mean that they ended it right after Elizabeth's death.

That makes NO SENSE. They were very much together at that point. AND they were bonded - wouldn't getting dis-bonded be a big deal? Not just like, "okay, let's end this thing?"

 

[Penguin]

Aiklweezie, the Bond, like the romance, was badly mishandled.

When it was first brought upTrip and T-Pol's minds joined over a fairly vast distance. That takes a powerful Bond. After that the bond was mentioned in Bound and dropped until a mention of it was made in Terra Prime.

The bond was too strong to be tossed off so easily. That bond would have kept the two paired unless it wsas deliberately broken by a vulcan Priest. I guess in TATV no mention was made of the bond being deliberately broken.

Bonded mentally and physically and romantically it is hard to believe that they would have parted right ater Terra Prime.

Of course by giving that impression it was easier for TPTB to kill off Trip and for T-Pol to show little remorse other than to pack his belongings.


Read some good Fanfics. Hopeful Romantic wrote some very good Trip and t-Pol stories that are worth a look at.

 

[commodore64]

That takes a powerful Bond. After that the bond was mentioned in Bound and dropped until a mention of it was made in Terra Prime.

What's weird is there was no lead up to the bond. I mean, wouldn't that have been a smart thing to do? Wouldn't it help show: wow, these people love each other?

Of course by giving that impression it was easier for TPTB to kill off Trip and for T-Pol to show little remorse other than to pack his belongings.

I don't know. They had four years. One would think in four years, they could show mutual caring and a fantastic, romance story even before killing off Trip. They didn't deliver and instead left, I think, a lot of confusion.

I think the writers failed in the romance category pretty thoroughly. I mean, going back in time, I think what they should've done was after Breaking the Ice ...

* Have Trip visit T'Pol's quarters with some homemade pecan pie and have him apologize for listening into her communications
* Have Trip interested in learning a few Vulcan traditions, maybe the language
* Show T'Pol begin to become more intrigued with science fiction and films in general; don't just show her at Movie Night in a dream or on a "date" with Archer (before I get hate mail - no it wasn't a date)
* During season 3 the beginning of a bond forming
* After T'Pol takes drugs, Trip goes to her and tells her to stop or that she can lean on him
* Trip know enough about Vulcan ceremony to offer to fight Kov or offer some way to help T'Les, T'Pol's mother
* In season 4, show some ideas that they share a bond and have it be romantic

I mean, it's not that hard. Is it? Are you guys satisfied with what the writers gave us? Maybe I differ with you guys over what was given to us. I think a lot of things were possible, but based on the characters they gave us and the way they gave it to us -- I hated it. I may've liked it if it had been done better. A hell of a lot better, and I think it was possible.

 

[Mach5]

That takes a powerful Bond. After that the bond was mentioned in Bound and dropped until a mention of it was made in Terra Prime.

What's weird is there was no lead up to the bond. I mean, wouldn't that have been a smart thing to do? Wouldn't it help show: wow, these people love each other?

Season 3 was in fact going in that direction (there was some nice romantic stuff along the way). Ironically, "Home" promised the beginning of the "real deal," but ended up being the end of it instead.

I think the writers failed in the romance category pretty thoroughly. I mean, going back in time, I think what they should've done was after Breaking the Ice ...

* Have Trip visit T'Pol's quarters with some homemade pecan pie and have him apologize for listening into her communications

T'Pol impudently broke protocol, there was nothing to apologize for. Had she used regular channels, her privacy would have remained intact and no suspicion would have been aroused.

* Have Trip interested in learning a few Vulcan traditions, maybe the language

He did seem to be interested in Vulcan stuff in "Home."

* Show T'Pol begin to become more intrigued with science fiction and films in general; don't just show her at Movie Night in a dream or on a "date" with Archer (before I get hate mail - no it wasn't a date)

Actually, that non-date felt awkward and inappropriate from the second Archer suggested it.

Are you guys satisfied with what the writers gave us? Maybe I differ with you guys over what was given to us. I think a lot of things were possible, but based on the characters they gave us and the way they gave it to us -- I hated it. I may've liked it if it had been done better. A hell of a lot better, and I think it was possible.

We're certainly in agreement here (except for the "hate" part). I always said that I liked TnT, not because of what they were, but because of what they could have been. Their chemistry was wonderful, sexual tension violently apparent, foundations were sound. Unfortunately, nothing impressive was built on those foundations.