A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

In that previous episode they show that Kes has lived her entire life span - and she had a good full life, but instead of dying, she travels back through time to the 3rd Season of Voyager. So everything after that point is just extra time; every day after that has been a gift that she shouldn't be experiencing anyways. .

I think you've misunderstood. In "Before and After" she only sees glimpses of a possible future, she only sees what we see and more...maybe about 4 days in total. I like how you've written it but unfortunately its not accurate
She only lived 4 days at most in the future.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

She de-ages back to the point of conception, then zips through her first four years back to the point at which she left, so she's at her correct age.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

(I'll not be reading the spoiler code parts til Monday. I'm going to try to go see the movie when the theater across the street is relatively empty.)

Brace yourself, I think this might be one of those rare cases where we disagree on something.

Nope. I don't think so.

Spoiler: Star Trek XI...

I saw it last night and I did enjoy the experience. I can usually turn my brain off with most things and let myself enjoy them, which was what I went in trying to do. I had already had my expectations lowered based on what GodBen and NCC-1701 had said, because I know their tastes, combined and averaged out, are generally the same as mine. After I'd learned the movie was being made, I was already wary of the idea of a prequel - ENT having soured me on the subject - but was a little happier when I realized it was a reboot in prequel's clothing. Then, I was a little annoyed that the production seemed to be trying to maintain ties to "old" Trek while still rebooting.

So as the movie began, I was really awed by the majesty of the Kelvin streaking into the scene and I got (surprisingly) appropriately misty when Jim Kirk was born and the Kelvin exploded. I liked seeing the juxtaposition of Kirk and Spock's two different "paths" even if Kirks felt a bit cliched. So anyway I was hooked at the beginning, but from there it seemed to become really predictable, even cliched, even ignoring the continuity gaffes/mistakes. Kirk's meeting of Uhura, Pike, and McCoy worked okay for me. The way Kirk beat the Kobayashi Maru seemed... off, somehow. I think this was a missed opportunity to show us that nuKirk is more old Kirk than we might have expected, by having him beat it in a specifically Kirk-like way. (Have him bluff corbomite, for example.) But having Spock be the one who programmed the simulator was pretty interesting, even if having Kirk and Spock hate each other over this was a bit stupid unto itself.

From there on, it was mostly rehashed cliche for me. Everyone meeting everyone, the Enterprise being the ship on-scene, the mostly-cadet crew being recruited to pilot the new ships because the fleet was elsewhere, Prime Spock conveniently being on Delta Vega where Kirk was ejected... Scotty being there... Scotty's alien sidekick... having to go over to the Narada. The ending felt the most ridiculous of all to me. Kirk being promoted to captain didn't bother me at the time, but the tone felt very tongue-in-cheek. I couldn't help but think of the ending of "Galaxy Quest" where the cast has a new TV show and they have their introductions. That's what the end of the film felt like to me.

Just watching it and not thinking about it, I did enjoy it. But thinking about it now, it feels like a nostalgic rehash of all the previous movies rolled up into one and dressed in TOS window dressing. So much of it felt just unnecessary. In any ways, the dialog, sets, and production overall felt very generic. The bridge seemed like some actors in Starfleet uniforms had gathered on a set left over from one of the Star Wars prequels. (Don't get me started on the production design. Yet.)

I know that the franchise was due for a reboot, and Orci and Kurtzman did a relatively good job (at least as good a job as they were capable of) with what they were trying to do - I can't help but feel much of it was purposefully tongue-in-cheek, playing off our expectations of what the "Prime" crew was like compared to the cliches that were the nu-crew, while using those cliches to make the franchise accessible for a new generation. Overall, if this was the intent, I think it was a mistake. I think that trying to reboot the franchise while saying that this was just an altered timeline was a mistake. (As most of you know, I'm not a fan of "having your cake and eating it too." ) I'd have, in many ways, preferred a critical reboot that in no way acknowledged TOS, beyond being a reboot of it. I think a few rewrites could have strongly helped this movie as it was, though. I'm not sure how many it went through, but I don't think it was quite enough. Even a few revisions of simple details would have made me happier. A character writer should have been brought in to help flesh out the characters and dialog, in particular.

I'm reasonably sure that the franchise is no longer on life support thanks to this movie, but I've not yet decided if that's a good thing.

So, the movie was enjoyable, but not great.

We now return you to your regular thread.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

We now return you to your regular thread.

Not just yet.

Spoiler: Trek XI

I agree with nearly everything you said, I suppose the biggest difference is that I didn't find the film particularly enjoyable. Some people say that it was a was rollercoaster ride, but for me it was like watching some random people riding a rollercoaster because I wasn't emotionally connected to any of the characters. I felt connected to Spock during the events on Vulcan and their aftermath, but then he completely lost me during the final act so the final battle scenes did absolutely nothing for me. I wouldn't say I was bored, but I certainly wasn't entertained enough to stop me picking the movie apart while I was in the theatre.

As for the KM scene, I agree that something was off in that scene. That was the moment when Pine almost captured the essence of Kirk but he didn't show enough charm and came off as obnoxious. Say what you want about Shatner, but you have to admit that the guy has charisma.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

In that previous episode they show that Kes has lived her entire life span - and she had a good full life, but instead of dying, she travels back through time to the 3rd Season of Voyager. So everything after that point is just extra time; every day after that has been a gift that she shouldn't be experiencing anyways. .

I think you've misunderstood. In "Before and After" she only sees glimpses of a possible future, she only sees what we say and more...maybe about 4 days in total. I like how you've written it but unfortunately its not accurate
She only lived 4 days at most in the future.

Actually, I think you misunderstood, but of course it's open to interpretation.

With a little help from Memory Alpha I'll try to explain how I interpreted the episode.

In the episode I saw, Kes had lived her entire life span into the year 2378 (in a much better future timeline in which Endgame never happened and Voyager had not returned to Earth yet). Kes had lost 98% of her memories due to her advanced morilogium. The Doctor struggled to give her 1 more year of life using a 'bio-temporal chamber' which was meant to revert Kes's cells to a an earlier state of entropic decay, but instead reactivated dormant chornitons in her system from a Krenim chroniton torpedo (which Seven later encounters in "Year of Hell", mirroring a scene in this episode), causing her to regress through her entire lifespan - picking up memories as she goes. The regressive effect is nullified in 2373 by exposing her to controlled doses of anti-chronitons, leaving her at her 3 year old status back in 2373 (though she has extra memories from her strange bit of time travel). Her life continues from this point - for a second time, though the timeline is altered as Kes now has an assortment of memories from the future that she didn't have the first time around, that she shares with Janeway - and Kes's own life has been extended in a way that no one could have forseen back in 2378. She has already lived her full life, but she can only remember the memories she picked up on her odd journey back through time because of the memory loss she suffered due to her natural biology in the future that will now never come to pass.

That's how I interpreted it anyways.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If I may add another comment to the topic of the movie, what I seem to be noticing is that, at least based on what I've seen, a lot of those who didn't find the movie enjoyable had expected to and those who had expected not to like it did. Maybe it's a case of how high expectations are difficult to reach and exceed, but low expectations provide a pleasant surprise when they're surpassed.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ That could be true. I went in expecting nothing, and left singing it's praises.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If I may add another comment to the topic of the movie, what I seem to be noticing is that, at least based on what I've seen, a lot of those who didn't find the movie enjoyable had expected to and those who had expected not to like it did. Maybe it's a case of how high expectations are difficult to reach and exceed, but low expectations provide a pleasant surprise when they're surpassed.

I didn't buy into the hype until about a week or two before going to see it and it was only because of all the tremendous reviews it was getting. When large groups of people said it is better than Wrath of Khan I expected something around that level, I didn't expect what we got. I probably did have my expectations set too high.


Nemesis (***)

Keep your top low and your glimpse wide.

Shut up!! Shut up, just shut the hell up! Speak like a normal person because as it is you are insufferable. You're almost as annoying as Neelix!

My basic take on this episode is that it was good but the way the aliens talked made me want to strangle every single one of them. It was toned down after a while, but those early scenes were tough to get through. Even though I remembered the twist while watching the episode I still enjoyed it, and Chakotay's difficulty letting go of his hatred even when he knows everything he went through was a lie made for a good ending. The episode was no Apocalypse Now, but at least the ending didn't devolve into a poetry reading.

Shuttles Lost: 7

What the hell? That is three episodes in a row where a shuttle has been destroyed, this is the clumsiest group of space travellers in the history of eternity. Could they not have spaced out these episodes a little better? Minus half a star.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Ah yes, the one with the Nausicaans in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[teya]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Keep your top low and your glimpse wide.

Shut up!! Shut up, just shut the hell up! Speak like a normal person because as it is you are insufferable. You're almost as annoying as Neelix!

My basic take on this episode is that it was good but the way the aliens talked made me want to strangle every single one of them. It was toned down after a while, but those early scenes were tough to get through.

If you look at the script or at transcripts, the dialect is exactly the same--it isn't "toned down." The viewer just gets used to it, as in the film "Hustle & Flow" (which is in the Nashville African-American dialect and basically unintelligible to a standard American speaker for the first 10 minutes--but once you get into the flow...) .

The alien dialect serves another purpose--when Chakotay starts talking like them, his brainwashing is complete.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

We now return you to your regular thread.

Not just yet.

Well...

Spoiler: Trek XI

I agree with nearly everything you said, I suppose the biggest difference is that I didn't find the film particularly enjoyable. Some people say that it was a was rollercoaster ride, but for me it was like watching some random people riding a rollercoaster because I wasn't emotionally connected to any of the characters. I felt connected to Spock during the events on Vulcan and their aftermath, but then he completely lost me during the final act so the final battle scenes did absolutely nothing for me. I wouldn't say I was bored, but I certainly wasn't entertained enough to stop me picking the movie apart while I was in the theatre.

Well, like I was saying, I went in with my brain shut off, because I basically knew that if I didn't I would start picking it apart immediately. Every time I started to, I went "No, stop it" in my head and it sustained me long enough to get hooked to the characters. However, the way the movie kind of fell apart by the last act was the real letdown for me. But I definitely know what you mean. I can't help but wonder if I connected to who I expected these people to be - the ghosts of the "Prime" crew - rather than who they were. If that makes any sense.

And I'm glad things feeling off in the KM wasn't just me. I also have to agree that Pine's Kirk wasn't quite as charming as Shatner's, but I can't decide if that was because Pine's Kirk was played as a jerk and Pine was able to make him more likeable than he might have otherwise been, or if Pine was just less charismatic.

I don't know. I still enjoyed the movie. I'm still glad it was made. But I hope the sequel is better.

Moving along...

Nemesis (***)

Keep your top low and your glimpse wide.

Shut up!! Shut up, just shut the hell up! Speak like a normal person because as it is you are insufferable. You're almost as annoying as Neelix!

I didn't quite have that reaction to the language - I thought it was a nice way of alienizing a race who was expressly meant to look human. But it was a big annoying. Overall, I really liked "Nemesis."

Shuttles Lost: 7

What the hell? That is three episodes in a row where a shuttle has been destroyed, this is the clumsiest group of space travellers in the history of eternity. Could they not have spaced out these episodes a little better? Minus half a star.

It's still Jeri Taylor's doing for what you said about "Coda."

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Nemesis

This is actually one of the few episodes in seasons 4-7 that I like. A good Chakotay story and I really liked that twist in the tale when it came to the people at war with each other in that story.

I did feel "at home" with the story because long before I watched this episode, I started writing a story about a Maquis crew stranded on a hostile planet, caught between two nations at war. However, that story turned into something completely different in the long run but that's another story.

As for "Nemesis", I'll give the episode 3 points out of 5.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

In that previous episode they show that Kes has lived her entire life span - and she had a good full life, but instead of dying, she travels back through time to the 3rd Season of Voyager. So everything after that point is just extra time; every day after that has been a gift that she shouldn't be experiencing anyways. .

I think you've misunderstood. In "Before and After" she only sees glimpses of a possible future, she only sees what we say and more...maybe about 4 days in total. I like how you've written it but unfortunately its not accurate
She only lived 4 days at most in the future.

Actually, I think you misunderstood, but of course it's open to interpretation.

With a little help from Memory Alpha I'll try to explain how I interpreted the episode.

In the episode I saw, Kes had lived her entire life span into the year 2378 (in a much better future timeline in which Endgame never happened and Voyager had not returned to Earth yet). Kes had lost 98% of her memories due to her advanced morilogium. The Doctor struggled to give her 1 more year of life using a 'bio-temporal chamber' which was meant to revert Kes's cells to a an earlier state of entropic decay, but instead reactivated dormant chornitons in her system from a Krenim chroniton torpedo (which Seven later encounters in "Year of Hell", mirroring a scene in this episode), causing her to regress through her entire lifespan - picking up memories as she goes. The regressive effect is nullified in 2373 by exposing her to controlled doses of anti-chronitons, leaving her at her 3 year old status back in 2373 (though she has extra memories from her strange bit of time travel). Her life continues from this point - for a second time, though the timeline is altered as Kes now has an assortment of memories from the future that she didn't have the first time around, that she shares with Janeway - and Kes's own life has been extended in a way that no one could have forseen back in 2378. She has already lived her full life, but she can only remember the memories she picked up on her odd journey back through time because of the memory loss she suffered due to her natural biology in the future that will now never come to pass.

That's how I interpreted it anyways.

I'm sorry but there's interpretation and then there's fact.
It is said that Kes only sees "glimpses" of a possible future at the end of the episode- that does not suggest she's seen her entire life.
Look at the example of when she flashes back and is on the holodeck, you say she should remember every single thing that had happened after that moment just not before (therefore meaning she had lived her entire life past that point as you claim) but she doesn't, she still thinks she is Tom' wife.
She only sees a few days of her future and this is specifically stated.

I liked Nemesis, it was a good episode but I hated the stupid way the people spoke too, totally unnecessary.
And I don't think taking away half a star for every shuttle lost is really fair.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And I don't think taking away half a star for every shuttle lost is really fair.

Then wait until you hear this; it's not for every shuttle lost, it is for every shuttle which appears from now on. They used all their shuttles and it is really undercutting the premise of the show, so I'm deducting half a star every time a shuttle is used as a plot point until they tell me where these magical shuttles are coming from.

My goodwill towards Voyager was always only going to be temporary.

 

[apenpaap]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

When the Photon Torpedoes are all gone, will you subtract half a point too when one is used? (You should) If both a shuttle and a torpedo are used after theyare both gone, will you extract 1 point or 1/2?

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yes, once they use up all the torpedoes I'll be doing the same thing, and it will be cumulative so if a torpedo and shuttle are used in an episode together 1 star will be deducted. And if the episode also happens to be a TNG knock-off then one and a half stars will be deducted.

I'm desperately trying to earn my reputation as a hater back after what I said the other night.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen, it is at least reasonable to assume that building a few new shuttles or salvaging some of the wrecked ones is possible.

Was it 17 shuttle crashes that somebody listed awhile back? Yeah that takes things into the realm of absurdity. But building at least a few more, why not? And remember not all of them were destroyed. Some were probably salvaged and rebuilt offscreen.

I feel the same way about the photorps. In the beginning they say something about not being able to replace them. But by this point in the series they have encountered and traded with enough cultures to have the ability to make more. Yes it is weak this isn't ever mentioned, yeah it is lame that we are never made to feel that there is or ever will be a shortage of them..but like with the shuttles I see no reason why they couldn't make more with the right materials.

I tend to agree with your complaints about most of these issues and wish they had been addressed. But I think you might be taking it a bit far.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Sorry, double post.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen, it is at least reasonable to assume that building a few new shuttles or salvaging some of the wrecked ones is possible.

I've actually been fairly lenient about this; if a shuttle crashes and is mostly intact (and Voyager isn't forced to flee as in Parturition) then I assume the shuttle was salvaged. I did this for the shuttle in Rise even though most think it was beyond salvaging. But if the shuttle was 100% destroyed then I count it.

And I was going to start this from shuttle number 5 but then I realised that means they'd be storing 3 shuttles to port and 2 to starboard (or vice versa) and I prefer to think that the shuttles are symmetrically stored so I upped it to 6. (I put far too much thought into this.)


The truth is that I'm not judging Voyager on an episode by episode basis, I'm trying to judge it as a series and since I view these things as undercutting the premise of the series I feel the need to take marks away from them. It might not be fair to take marks away from an episode, especially the good ones, but this is the best way I can think to work it.

 

[CubColtPacer]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The only thing I'm worried about with the taking half a point off for shuttles and torpedoes now is that people like to compare your scores between seasons and between episodes. Is a season 7 episode that uses both a torpedo and a shuttle really a full point worse than a season 1 episode that does the same thing? It's very likely that the same disregard for the resources that Voyager had available to them were there in either case. Essentially, it's almost certain that seasons 5-7 are going to be your worst rated seasons, and a large part of that is going to be shuttles and torpedoes. Unlike the TNG like deduction (which is possible in any season) there will be an inherent bias in the data because of this. Personally, I think you should count each time it happens, and then when you average your scores for the entire series (giving an overall series quality score) you can take off a certain amount off the average for each time it happened. That would penalize the overall series score without hurting the individual episodes themselves.