Timelines, reality,star trek, canon, and the Truth!

[El Chupacabra]

You can't watch Smallville because its different to the Reeve films? OK, a bit limiting. I can't watch it because its teen drama that holds no perceived appeal to me.

Well, I don't like that aspect either. Point is that teh reason why I like certain things is a combination of several factors. If some of those elemnts are missing then it doesn't hold as much attraction for me.

But you say the star trek you love was cerebral, well The Cage was too cerebral to commision a series but Where No Man Has Gone Before wasn't. So if the pilot can be dumbed down, if episodes like Spocks Brain get a free ticket, why can't this film.

WNMHGB is certainly way more cerebral than the new movie....Roddenberry's solution to the Cage's problem was simply to put a fist fight at the end. Spock's Brain is dire. Anyhow, TOS is the some of all its parts. You cannot single out one episode, you must look at it as a whole. If I were to judge TOS on Spock's Brain I'd have to say its alwful and has no appeal. But, its a TV show so I judge it on its continuing stories and overall it was cerebral. So far we only have one Abrams and it was not cerebral so that's why I don't give it a "free ticket". If the sequel better lives up to the TOS storytelling of old then you can rest assured that I will give Abrams more due than he is getting from this fan now as it will be more in line with what I always enjoyed about Trek, reboot or no.

Its a Blockbuster, it has to have mass appeal, but as others point out, its a coming of age movie, young folk finding their place in the world, dealing with complex emotions and being different, coping with loss. Its not just boom boom boom.

No it isn't just boom, boom, boom, but the coming of age elements are basic and nothing that I haven't seen in a non-Trek movie. Casino Royale showed us that you can have a big bloackbuster but also have an intelligent script with depth. There's not reason in the hands of the right writers that could bt done and still include the booms.

I'm on a mission to challenge this intellectual bullshit but no one wants to defend it.

I guess you were one of the fans that preferred space battles to the morality play. Well, to each his own. That is yoru right and I won't reduce myself to calling your opinion bullshit on the interweb jsut to make myself feel better.

 

[adamisme]

Loved the movie....and don't mind the timeline changes by Nero coming back and blowing up the Kelvin... however all my Star Trek stuff has disappeared and anyone I ask looks at me like I'm an idiot and doesn't know what I'm talking about...help.......sorry couldn't resist

 

[El Chupacabra]

'Cerebral' this and 'intellectual' that. Cerebral? If you're a poxy teen!

Well, this thirtysomething thinks that it is better for poxy teens to watch that "cerebral" than the mindless stuff that is pumped their way today.

You know, when fans talk about the cerebral elements of Trek its because they like something to think about when watching it.....it's not because they are otherwise idiots who think that Star Trek is the height of intellectualism. In fact most of the fans who like the cerebral elements are usually significant more educated and intelligent than Trek has ever reached.

 

[cmdrbolly]

. In fact most of the fans who like the cerebral elements are usually significant more educated and intelligent than Trek has ever reached.

That's like going down to the local brothel and patting yourself on the back because you took the time to pick the least smelly whore. Or one who could hold a half decent conversation. What's the bloody point? To make yourself feel better about it?

If cerebral is indeed what these self-professed Trek intellectuals are looking for, then why not look for it where there's at least half a chance of really finding it? Otherwise, it's some ex post facto exercise to justify liking something - 'Oh, it's soooo cerebral!' That's no better than telling people you buy Playboy for 'the articles'.

 

[In the Past]

Gotta agree with those that understand what this film really way--a giant dump taken on the entire Star Trek franchise.

Deny it all you want, but this movie DID erase EVERYTHING. The original series, all the movies, Next Gen, DS9, Voyager (well that would be no loss), none of them will ever exist now, nor will any stories ever be told that include them. For all intents and purposes, in this new Trek universe, nothing that has ever happened is relevant anymore, except maybe for Enterprise.

Yeah, parts of the movie were really well done. They got the characters right. The movie was fun and at times, quite engaging. But the story was just horribly written--lazy and full of huge plot holes that even the most average of scriptwriters should be embarassed by. It's like they spent all their time on getting the characters and special effects right, and then spent 5 minutes writing a story to use them.

What is so stupid is that throwing away everything was so completely unnecessary. The whole point of having a universe such as Star Trek is that there are infinite stories to tell. But apparently they were too lazy to figure this out and just said "throw it all out so we can do whatever the f' we want."

Like someone else said, why don't we reboot Star Wars next? I know--we can have the emperor send someone back in time to kill off Luke as a kid (making it look like a moisture farming accident of course) and then center all the movies around Leia instead. Unexpectedly, she will be able to save Darth Vader and they will go around the galaxy as a kick-ass father-daughther crime-fighting jedi team! That will sell tickets for sure!

There were plenty of Star Trek stories left to be told without just throwing the entire known universe away. The only reason to do so was just abject laziness, and a general lack of any respect for the Star Trek universe. Oh, and I guess to make craploads of money from non Star Trek fans, which it looks like they are being quite successful with! All hail the pursuit of money over all else!

Oh boo hoo friggin' hoo.

Star Trek is Kirk and Spock, and in a pinch, Bones. Everyone and everything else in the world of Trek is, ultimately, disposable. Since the experience of watching Shatner and Nimoy trying to act all young and frisky would be an agony second perhaps only to sitting through Roger Moore acting all randy in View To A Kill, it was clearly time to recast.

The rest of the Trek 'Universe' is largely stilted shite.

LMAO! I haven't heard that perspective before... and despite the fact that I think you're wrong (about the rest being shite or less valuable), I respect your opinion. It's a very different spin on the prevelant "I like the old stuff better than the new stuff" attitude.

 

[El Chupacabra]

If cerebral is indeed what these self-professed Trek intellectuals are looking for, then why not look for it where there's at least half a chance of really finding it? Otherwise, it's some ex post facto exercise to justify liking something - 'Oh, it's soooo cerebral!'

I do, most of my film choices tend not to be range of mindless summer blockbusters.

 

[cmdrbolly]

I do, most of my film choices tend not to be range of mindless summer blockbusters.

Then you clearly have a case against your navigator for plopping you in the middle of a chicken ranch when you were looking for the hen house.

 

[In the Past]

. In fact most of the fans who like the cerebral elements are usually significant more educated and intelligent than Trek has ever reached.

That's like going down to the local brothel and patting yourself on the back because you took the time to pick the least smelly whore. Or one who could hold a half decent conversation. What's the bloody point? To make yourself feel better about it?

If cerebral is indeed what these self-professed Trek intellectuals are looking for, then why not look for it where there's at least half a chance of really finding it? Otherwise, it's some ex post facto exercise to justify liking something - 'Oh, it's soooo cerebral!' That's no better than telling people you buy Playboy for 'the articles'.

I personally believe Trek, at it's best, and for the most part, is the smartest, most intellectually stimulating show on TV. But since it isn't actually on TV anymore apart from re-runs... I'd say Boston Legal is the smartest show on TV (I expect that to ruin my arguement in some people's eyes). Woah it just clicked that they both have the Shat in them... wierd.

I don't take issue that that STXI was not particularly "cerebral" (talk about a wanky word). Sure it would have been nice, but I also believe ST has been a bench-mark for the best action sci-fi on film, and some of the best interpersonal, emotional drama on film. So I'm not gonna get my knickers in a twist if I can't have my cake and eat it too!

Roddenberry wanted every Trek story to be a parable on human nature... Fortunately for me, human nature is about thinking, feeling, and butt-kicking action!

 

[triox]

I think the problem is: many of you have an idea of what trek is in your mind. That idea has changed over the years and has become your sole property. When someone toys with this idea by adding new material, it grates.

It would be impossible to satisfy all the hardcore fans, you could only satisfy a small percentage no matter what you did.

 

[Nomad8324]

I think the problem is: many of you have an idea of what trek is in your mind. That idea has changed over the years and has become your sole property. When someone toys with this idea by adding new material, it grates.

It would be impossible to satisfy all the hardcore fans, you could only satisfy a small percentage no matter what you did.

Not to mention trying to revive the series and bring new people in.

 

[Butters]

But you say the star trek you love was cerebral, well The Cage was too cerebral to commision a series but Where No Man Has Gone Before wasn't. So if the pilot can be dumbed down, if episodes like Spocks Brain get a free ticket, why can't this film.

WNMHGB is certainly way more cerebral than the new movie....Roddenberry's solution to the Cage's problem was simply to put a fist fight at the end. Spock's Brain is dire. Anyhow, TOS is the some of all its parts. You cannot single out one episode, you must look at it as a whole. If I were to judge TOS on Spock's Brain I'd have to say its alwful and has no appeal. But, its a TV show so I judge it on its continuing stories and overall it was cerebral. So far we only have one Abrams and it was not cerebral so that's why I don't give it a "free ticket". If the sequel better lives up to the TOS storytelling of old then you can rest assured that I will give Abrams more due than he is getting from this fan now as it will be more in line with what I always enjoyed about Trek, reboot or no.

But this my argument. WNMHGB doesn't require a great deal of thought to follow and the questions it raises are mostly plot points. Why is there a galactic barrier, why would it give you mental powers, why would that make you turn against your friends. Oh yeah, power corrupts, I get it. I can think about it, but at the end of the day its pretty meaningless.

Its a Blockbuster, it has to have mass appeal, but as others point out, its a coming of age movie, young folk finding their place in the world, dealing with complex emotions and being different, coping with loss. Its not just boom boom boom.

No it isn't just boom, boom, boom, but the coming of age elements are basic and nothing that I haven't seen in a non-Trek movie. Casino Royale showed us that you can have a big bloackbuster but also have an intelligent script with depth. There's not reason in the hands of the right writers that could bt done and still include the booms.

There are many well plotted blockbusters. I'm not saying Star Trek is by anymeans fantastic, but when compared against the other 10 films I can't see how it can judged harshly.

I'm on a mission to challenge this intellectual bullshit but no one wants to defend it.

I guess you were one of the fans that preferred space battles to the morality play. Well, to each his own. That is yoru right and I won't reduce myself to calling your opinion bullshit on the interweb jsut to make myself feel better.

Yes, I prefer the space battles to the morality play, but I mainly watch for the sci fi, where it can be found. I don't find 1960s moralities or analogies that relevant in todays world, that doesn't mean I don't understand them, anymore than recognising them makes me intelligent.

I'm not calling your opinion bullshit. I'm challenging the notion that star trek is intellectual when you'll find the same level of complexity, morality and analogy in The Simpsons.

. In fact most of the fans who like the cerebral elements are usually significant more educated and intelligent than Trek has ever reached.

That's like going down to the local brothel and patting yourself on the back because you took the time to pick the least smelly whore. Or one who could hold a half decent conversation. What's the bloody point? To make yourself feel better about it?

If cerebral is indeed what these self-professed Trek intellectuals are looking for, then why not look for it where there's at least half a chance of really finding it? Otherwise, it's some ex post facto exercise to justify liking something - 'Oh, it's soooo cerebral!' That's no better than telling people you buy Playboy for 'the articles'.

Most of the educated and intelligent fans don't recognise the cerebral parts as such because they seem a little simplistic. Thoughtful sometimes maybe, but star trek is more like somewhere you'd call in on the way to intellectualism and then look back fondly.

As for morality in the new film and beyond. No thanks. Unless they're exploring a future where Uhura is free to fuck every man on the Enterprise and thats fine because its no ones business but her own.

 

[McMenemy00]

I have posted this in another thread but it's because i can't find the one entitled "How J.J. burnt my beloved." I heard somewhere we should all just relax and that this is just a TV show.

I know, thats totally what i said!

Anyway that slick little man who has apparently appointed himself King Of Cult (here in refered too as JJ or Him) has killed my show, he killed it dead.

Because....

While argumants can be made that not all of these are plot holes they are all things that stuck out like a sore thumb in the middle of a trek movie. I am entitling this post "What JJ did wrong" I hope he considers this spec of dust on the information highway an open letter to him and his peeps.

1) NOKIA!!!!! Are you screwing with me? Product placement in a trek movie! In a world where captilist ideals have been rejected for mutual co-operation! WTF!!!!!!!

2) BUDWEISER!!!! See above

3) Red Matter? Red Matter? using a theasaurus I can translate this too "red stuff." Don't even get me started on the inherint nonsense this lax crappy piece of writing painted all over this movie. (Sometimes it's a time tunnel, sometimes it's a blackhole, sometimes it's a massive ball of gloop you need a tiny bit of too do the job, so why the hell did they put gallons of it in that tiny little spinny ship? Why not build the seat ontop of crates of TNT? Perhaps the warp core should come in one of those handy, easily breakable glass boxes for fire alarms!!! Arghhh you got me started)

4) Vulcans bullying Spock? isn't bullying based on emtion? Fear of whats different, hatred of whats different. Instead of smashing his pointy eared little head in why didn't he just point out that there attempt too "elicit an emotional response" was a freaking "emotional response"

5) A Vulcan child using the word "whore" wow classy, intellectual puppets of the federation huh? What happened to galactic mutual co-operation et al?

6) Why do the nacelles that generate a "warp field" to displace them into another layer of space where they can beat the old e=mc2 deal, have giant big glowy thrusters on the back, mm good for marshmellows and totally safe I swear.

7) Kirk is God. Not even God gets promoted from Cadet to Captain of the flagship based on one mission he wasn't cleared to go on and in the middle of a freakin' cheating enquiry god damn it!

8)The engineer who had to be killed to be replaced by Scotty had the charges. kind of a numb skull plan on Pike's behalf to send three guys to blow something up and not give them all freakin' explosives.

9) Red stuff? Seriously your sh****ing me.

10) his reward for some 109 years of federation service is to be trapped in a parellel universe, and in the past at the beginning of his own career? What do you have against Spock?

J.J. NOTE THIS WELL.
11) Jesus what is that thing following Scotty? We don't do Ewoks
J.J. NOTE THIS WELL.

12) Surely an intellect like Spocks has come to terms with the theory that altering the timeline creates parallel universes, so why is he so into the idea immediately?

13) A freakin supernova threatened the galaxy and destroyed romulus? Baring in Mind nothing was said about it being overly huge, or mega special, this would be the same phenomenon that Voyager witnessed at close distance three times in two days? This common enough galactic phenomenon is suddenly freakin' Armageddon?

14) when said Mega disaster happens Spock says "I'll fix it" to the romulans the the vastly more powerful romulan star empire kicks back and waits for an elderly Vulcan in a tiny ship to save there planet? What about that mega fleet of warbirds you guys had a few centuries ago? ever think about maybe, I dunno, EVACUATING THE PLANET NIMROD?

15) In a car described as a classic and restored in loving detail, a frikken data terminal and mobile communications terminal? Made by Nokia? QUIT SELLING ME STUFF

16) Theres an Orion Female/most likely slave girl at starfleet academy. Yeah that seems hugely likely.

Thats what i remember after one viewing on thursday 7th may. I'm terrified to see it again because i know I'll remeber/see more of this god awful wrongness.

I have to say I liked the movie. Had he not called it Star Trek I wouldn't be here. Convenient plot devices, lousy with technobabble, this I accept. However I feel that with this franchise "re-boot" he booted the ineffable quality known as Heart right out of my god damn show. Nice try, but next time call it Cool Looking Space Stuff by J.J. you raving ego maniac.

J.J. Abrahams Star Trek? i don't remember him dressing like a bike cop and pulling over execs to get them too even look at the script for "The Cage."

LONG MAY THE RODDENBERRY BE REMEMBERED!

 

[Butters]

When at the bar, how would you distinguish the beer you do want from the beers you don't want? Calling it by name perhaps? Budweiser could well be just the recipe. I don't drink lager beers but its a pessimistic future that is absent of my favourite pint. Not very Roddenbury don't you think.

As for Nokia? Should all electrical devices just say "nondescript hardware assembling organisation?" Why shouldn't recognisable names exist?

And who said what year that classic car had been restored from? For all you know it was lovingly restored to its 2190s condition.

 

[methos8]

There were good things and bad things about the film (much like life don't you think?) but I think the whole point was even when things change, some things do not. Kirk, Spock and McCoy will still end up friends. When Vger and the ST4 probe come, they will deal with it much the same. We may never see it or hear about it in future films but why the heck would we want to? We've seen it before!

Also, the original timeline still exists. In the end of the prequel comics the Enterprise-E arrives after Nero and Spock are sent back in time. They take the time to think of Spock and hope for his safety. They don't fade away Back to the Future style, nor does anything change "Yesterday's Enterprise" style due to changes in history.

The point is that their timeline is intact. Any changes to history would have resolved in the future the moment Nero and Spock went back (another example being in First Contact, the Enterprise had a moment to scan Earth and notice the new Borg population, them being protected by the Borg portal they were also entering.

The new movie is clearly an alternate parallel reality to what we already know and love. I don't mind people knocking it for what it is (thats their opinion), but don't knock it for what it should be, because it shouldn't.

 

[Flamegrape]

I spent a long time reading through this thread. It was probably a waste of time.

The movie was cool. I'll see it a few more times in the theater.

I can understand why long-time fans are bothered. I knew there was going to be displeasure on the part of fans. That's practically a given. So I tactfully recommend that people not antagonizing the old trekkers.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Most of the educated and intelligent fans don't recognise the cerebral parts as such because they seem a little simplistic. Thoughtful sometimes maybe, but star trek is more like somewhere you'd call in on the way to intellectualism and then look back fondly.

Good point.

 

[Tikkun]

I have posted this in another thread but it's because i can't find the one entitled "How J.J. burnt my beloved." I heard somewhere we should all just relax and that this is just a TV show.

I know, thats totally what i said!

Anyway that slick little man who has apparently appointed himself King Of Cult (here in refered too as JJ or Him) has killed my show, he killed it dead.

Because....

While argumants can be made that not all of these are plot holes they are all things that stuck out like a sore thumb in the middle of a trek movie. I am entitling this post "What JJ did wrong" I hope he considers this spec of dust on the information highway an open letter to him and his peeps.

1) NOKIA!!!!! Are you screwing with me? Product placement in a trek movie! In a world where captilist ideals have been rejected for mutual co-operation! WTF!!!!!!!

2) BUDWEISER!!!! See above

3) Red Matter? Red Matter? using a theasaurus I can translate this too "red stuff." Don't even get me started on the inherint nonsense this lax crappy piece of writing painted all over this movie. (Sometimes it's a time tunnel, sometimes it's a blackhole, sometimes it's a massive ball of gloop you need a tiny bit of too do the job, so why the hell did they put gallons of it in that tiny little spinny ship? Why not build the seat ontop of crates of TNT? Perhaps the warp core should come in one of those handy, easily breakable glass boxes for fire alarms!!! Arghhh you got me started)

4) Vulcans bullying Spock? isn't bullying based on emtion? Fear of whats different, hatred of whats different. Instead of smashing his pointy eared little head in why didn't he just point out that there attempt too "elicit an emotional response" was a freaking "emotional response"

5) A Vulcan child using the word "whore" wow classy, intellectual puppets of the federation huh? What happened to galactic mutual co-operation et al?

6) Why do the nacelles that generate a "warp field" to displace them into another layer of space where they can beat the old e=mc2 deal, have giant big glowy thrusters on the back, mm good for marshmellows and totally safe I swear.

7) Kirk is God. Not even God gets promoted from Cadet to Captain of the flagship based on one mission he wasn't cleared to go on and in the middle of a freakin' cheating enquiry god damn it!

8)The engineer who had to be killed to be replaced by Scotty had the charges. kind of a numb skull plan on Pike's behalf to send three guys to blow something up and not give them all freakin' explosives.

9) Red stuff? Seriously your sh****ing me.

10) his reward for some 109 years of federation service is to be trapped in a parellel universe, and in the past at the beginning of his own career? What do you have against Spock?

J.J. NOTE THIS WELL.
11) Jesus what is that thing following Scotty? We don't do Ewoks
J.J. NOTE THIS WELL.

12) Surely an intellect like Spocks has come to terms with the theory that altering the timeline creates parallel universes, so why is he so into the idea immediately?

13) A freakin supernova threatened the galaxy and destroyed romulus? Baring in Mind nothing was said about it being overly huge, or mega special, this would be the same phenomenon that Voyager witnessed at close distance three times in two days? This common enough galactic phenomenon is suddenly freakin' Armageddon?

14) when said Mega disaster happens Spock says "I'll fix it" to the romulans the the vastly more powerful romulan star empire kicks back and waits for an elderly Vulcan in a tiny ship to save there planet? What about that mega fleet of warbirds you guys had a few centuries ago? ever think about maybe, I dunno, EVACUATING THE PLANET NIMROD?

15) In a car described as a classic and restored in loving detail, a frikken data terminal and mobile communications terminal? Made by Nokia? QUIT SELLING ME STUFF

16) Theres an Orion Female/most likely slave girl at starfleet academy. Yeah that seems hugely likely.

Thats what i remember after one viewing on thursday 7th may. I'm terrified to see it again because i know I'll remeber/see more of this god awful wrongness.

I have to say I liked the movie. Had he not called it Star Trek I wouldn't be here. Convenient plot devices, lousy with technobabble, this I accept. However I feel that with this franchise "re-boot" he booted the ineffable quality known as Heart right out of my god damn show. Nice try, but next time call it Cool Looking Space Stuff by J.J. you raving ego maniac.

J.J. Abrahams Star Trek? i don't remember him dressing like a bike cop and pulling over execs to get them too even look at the script for "The Cage."

LONG MAY THE RODDENBERRY BE REMEMBERED!

Wow! Care to tell us what you really think?

1 & 2 - yeah, corporate sponsorship run amuck.

3 - I was amused/appalled (in retrospect) that Spock, then Nero, were floating around with a giant gelatinous red beach ball encase in plexiglass - when a pearl sized drop could create a black hole. One accident away from universal destruction - seemed a bit risky.

4 & 5 - Yeah, but the bullying was established in TOS. Y'know - stiff lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you. I would have preferred something less obviously human in terms of technique and lines, but given the premise the interaction was limited.

9 - 11 - 14 - well put! Have to agree with you there!

16 - Abrams freed the slaves - or maybe not all green Orion females aren't slaves in the JJverse. Definite improvement.

 

[cmdrbolly]

I'm challenging the notion that star trek is intellectual when you'll find the same level of complexity, morality and analogy in The Simpsons.

Exactly! And often done better in the Simpsons.

Every 'intellectual' or 'cerebral' idea that's supposedly been addressed by Trek, on TV and in film, has been done and done better in other films.

Most of the educated and intelligent fans don't recognise the cerebral parts as such because they seem a little simplistic. Thoughtful sometimes maybe, but star trek is more like somewhere you'd call in on the way to intellectualism and then look back fondly.

As for morality in the new film and beyond. No thanks. Unless they're exploring a future where Uhura is free to fuck every man on the Enterprise and thats fine because its no ones business but her own.

Agreed.

 

[Butters]

Most of the educated and intelligent fans don't recognise the cerebral parts as such because they seem a little simplistic. Thoughtful sometimes maybe, but star trek is more like somewhere you'd call in on the way to intellectualism and then look back fondly.

Good point.

Thank you.

I know I'm nitpicking other people, but I firmly believe now is as good a time as any to explode some of the myths, cliches and misconceptions about Star Trek.

All the pre-mis-conceived notions that are now being used as reason to object to a movie that is at least as faithful to TOS as anything else that has gone before. Like the optimism and cooperation of the future. That sort of thing, its just empty rhetoric.

 

[thumbtack]

Loved the movie....and don't mind the timeline changes by Nero coming back and blowing up the Kelvin... however all my Star Trek stuff has disappeared and anyone I ask looks at me like I'm an idiot and doesn't know what I'm talking about...help.......sorry couldn't resist

Me, too! The moment this film was released all my TNG and DS9 action figures fizzled out of existence.

Damn You, J.J.!!!!!!!