Pathetic Showing for Starfleet

[Vader47000]

Major spoilers to follow ...

One of the things that disappointed me about the new film was the loosey goosey portrayal of Starfleet. What we saw was an organization with a flimsy organizational structure and a total lack of the military-esque discipline we have seen in every other incarnation of the show.

It's one thing to have commanders simply replacing their bridge officers at will. But look at that scene at the Academy that leads to the mission to Vulcan.

First, we get Kirk being totally called out for a disciplinary action in front of the whole academy. WTF. Is there any way this isn't handled privately?

Then, the whole idea that the fleet is away on exercises and can't go to Vulcan. Huh? The whole fleet of ships tasked with exploring the galaxy are all exploring one specific sector of it at the same time? Except for the seven or so ships that happen to be in Earth orbit. But these ships don't have an actual crew and need the friggin' cadets to staff them? WTF? Why would Starfleet keep ships in orbit and no one around to staff them, especially the new flagship of the fleet?

And then six of the ships are wiped out in the first minutes of the battle, killing how many cadets? That should lead to some lawsuits from some angry parents.

Then we get acting captains tossing people off their ship on a whim, which is just bad form.

And on top of that, one of the cadets disobeys orders several times and ends up saving the day. And for this he not only gets to graduate the academy early, but gets to skip the general rank structure to become Captain of the friggin flagship? WTF?

Not to mention that the guy who was actually acting captain of the ship did as much to save Earth, and he just kind of gets passed over, especially after his planet is blown up. His only real lapse is when the other guy goaded him into an outburst. I'd say under the circumstances Spock acted beautifully.

Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.

 

[Phily B]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!

BTW, ever thought that the ships were being refitted at that time and so didn't have a crew on hand? I mean I'm sure you'd make some bullshit excuse up for something in TNG/VOY/DS9 that ignores previous canon or regulation. Its a god damn movie, its a great movie.

 

[T'Paul]

Then, the whole idea that the fleet is away on exercises and can't go to Vulcan. Huh? The whole fleet of ships tasked with exploring the galaxy are all exploring one specific sector of it at the same time? Except for the seven or so ships that happen to be in Earth orbit. But these ships don't have an actual crew and need the friggin' cadets to staff them? WTF? Why would Starfleet keep ships in orbit and no one around to staff them, especially the new flagship of the fleet?

Bad writing.

And then six of the ships are wiped out in the first minutes of the battle, killing how many cadets? That should lead to some lawsuits from some angry parents.

They weren't expecting an attack.

Then we get acting captains tossing people off their ship on a whim, which is just bad form.

Bad writing but it had to happen to get Kirk alone with Old Spock.

And on top of that, one of the cadets disobeys orders several times and ends up saving the day. And for this he not only gets to graduate the academy early, but gets to skip the general rank structure to become Captain of the friggin flagship? WTF?

Bad writing. Horrific Wesley Crusher flashbacks.

Not to mention that the guy who was actually acting captain of the ship did as much to save Earth, and he just kind of gets passed over, especially after his planet is blown up. His only real lapse is when the other guy goaded him into an outburst. I'd say under the circumstances Spock acted beautifully.

Bad writing.

Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.

I agree. There were many things about the movie that I liked, but I have very little respect for anyone who thought the plot was great.

 

[Phily B]

If they did everything you said, more people would be whining about how Kirk is in the Academy, and Spock is the Captain of the Enterprise.

 

[clint g]

Yeah it really is a case of bad writing. I mean overall its very good but there were somet hings that are sort of stretching credibility. The one way I can see alot of this being justified is if the Federation isnt in tip top shape at the moment. perhaps tehy are at war with someone else right now, tying up resources and man power.

 

[Vader47000]

They weren't expecting an attack.

The point here is not about the expectations of the attack. It's the total reliance on cadets in the case of an attack. Starfleet should be better prepared for something (granted, other movies trotted out the "Enterprise is the only ship in range" BS also, but not like this)

Looking at U.S. history, the only time cadets were needed was during the clusterfuck called the Civil War.

 

[-Brett-]

Yeah, there's no getting around this one. NuStarfleet is pretty weird. You can join just by hopping on a shuttle, no entrance exams. Crewmen are cadets are lieutenants (Uhura was referred to as all three in the same scene). I can understand them wanting to let go of minutiae, but they kinda took that to an extreme.

 

[Vader47000]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!

BTW, ever thought that the ships were being refitted at that time and so didn't have a crew on hand? I mean I'm sure you'd make some bullshit excuse up for something in TNG/VOY/DS9 that ignores previous canon or regulation. Its a god damn movie, its a great movie.

At least those shows gave me a reason to care. Well, maybe not Voyager.

 

[Mr. B]

It's about the characters, dammit!

 

[clint g]

Yeah, there's no getting around this one. NuStarfleet is pretty weird. You can join just by hopping on a shuttle, no entrance exams. Crewmen are cadets are lieutenants (Uhura was referred to as all three in the same scene). I can understand them wanting to let go of minutiae, but they kinda took that to an extreme.

Yeah it was bizarre. i know people say that Starfleet isnt a military organization but it is clearly based off of them. Trek needs a military adviser, if only to keep things like that straight.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Why am I reminded of that quote by Janeway from Flashback:

"It was a very different time, Mister Kim. Captain Sulu, Captain Kirk, Doctor McCoy. They all belonged to a different breed of Starfleet officers. Imagine the era they lived in: the Alpha quadrant still largely unexplored... Humanity on verge of war with Klingons, Romulans hiding behind every nebula. Even the technology we take for granted was still in its early stages: no plasma weapons, no multi-phasic shields... Their ships were half as fast."

"No replicators. No holodecks. You know, ever since I took Starfleet history at the Academy, I've always wondered what it would be like to live in those days."

"Space must have seemed a whole lot bigger back then. It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit: I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that."

 

[Robert DeSoto]

I agree its pretty sad that only seven Federation starships were available to protect one of the founding members of the Federation. But considering that the Enterprise was also the only ship able to intercept V'Ger in time, seven ships is quite an improvement for Starfleet.

But yeah, when Pike made Kirk first officer, I was like huh? And the end of the movie, the cadet becomes Captain of the Enterprise, when the rest of the senior staff were already ensigns, leutenants, commanders etc. I'm suprised nobody said WTF? Put yourself in Spock's shoes. Let's say your Vice President of your company. Pike, the CEO decides to retire and he names some 25 year punk kid straight out of university to be the new CEO. Boy I'd be pissed.

In the prime universe, Kirk was in his 30s when he took command of the Enterprise and that was already considered very young. Picard was in his 50s when he got command of his Enterprise.

Of course, everyone wants to see Kirk sit in the captain's chair, myself included. But maybe they could've moved the story a few years forward so that Kirk wasn't a cadet. Make him a commander from the USS Faragut or something, I duno.

 

[pookha]

well kirk went thorugh the series either out right disobeying orders or knowing he was about the skirt on the bad side of the prime directive but in the end he got promoted to admiral.

as for the hearing well it wasnt exactly public since the hearing seemed to be not only in front of authority but also of his peers.
any way i could see why starfleet had some of his peers there including seeing as a learning episode.

as to enterance exam..
who knows they may go through that once they get to san fran.
if they dont make it they get a ride back home.

as to the number of ships..
almost all the time enterprise was the only ship around no matter how dire things were.
and it didnt matter which enterprise.
i mean yeah it made even less sense in the motion picture or that matter best of both worlds. they didnt hold any of the fleet back to defend earth...

remember there isnt a lot of the larger ships around if they follow things even partly.

 

[ed629]

First off... the parents and Academy students knew they could be called into action at any time. Similar to when I was an LEO, I knew that I could called into duty while still in training as any other LEO.

Second, to prevent the actions being repeated, a cadet would have his actions called out in front of his fellow peers, to prevent them from doing the same be seeing what the repercussions were.

Military discipline is called out in front of all others, Starfleet is military.

 

[Vader47000]

First off... the parents and Academy students knew they could be called into action at any time. Similar to when I was an LEO, I knew that I could called into duty while still in training as any other LEO.

Second, to prevent the actions being repeated, a cadet would have his actions called out in front of his fellow peers, to prevent them from doing the same be seeing what the repercussions were.

Military discipline is called out in front of all others, Starfleet is military.

I had suspicions this was the case. Thanks for clarifying. Very helpful.

I actually didn't mind the scene where Kirk is called out. I was just thinking about it within the context of everything else.

 

[Vader47000]

Yeah, there's no getting around this one. NuStarfleet is pretty weird. You can join just by hopping on a shuttle, no entrance exams. Crewmen are cadets are lieutenants (Uhura was referred to as all three in the same scene). I can understand them wanting to let go of minutiae, but they kinda took that to an extreme.

Yeah it was bizarre. i know people say that Starfleet isnt a military organization but it is clearly based off of them. Trek needs a military adviser, if only to keep things like that straight.

I think Ron Moore really brought that kind of military awareness to the franchise that gave it a certain credibility. Late TNG and DS9 actually depicted non-comms and Marines and had a real sense of structure that provided a lot of credibility.

 

[clint g]

Yeah, there's no getting around this one. NuStarfleet is pretty weird. You can join just by hopping on a shuttle, no entrance exams. Crewmen are cadets are lieutenants (Uhura was referred to as all three in the same scene). I can understand them wanting to let go of minutiae, but they kinda took that to an extreme.

Yeah it was bizarre. i know people say that Starfleet isnt a military organization but it is clearly based off of them. Trek needs a military adviser, if only to keep things like that straight.

I think Ron Moore really brought that kind of military awareness to the franchise that gave it a certain credibility. Late TNG and DS9 actually depicted non-comms and Marines and had a real sense of structure that provided a lot of credibility.

I'll give him this much..he did try. It was a pretty pathetic attempt however and while there was the occasional mention of a non-comm (excluding Chief O'brian of course) it was very clear the writers had no understanding as to how rank works or the role of the NCO

First off... the parents and Academy students knew they could be called into action at any time. Similar to when I was an LEO, I knew that I could called into duty while still in training as any other LEO.

I dont know what an LEO is, but as an Army Cadet I can assure you that ever member of the military would have to be dead before they would deploy us to anything that involved any real skill

Second, to prevent the actions being repeated, a cadet would have his actions called out in front of his fellow peers, to prevent them from doing the same be seeing what the repercussions were.

Military discipline is called out in front of all others, Starfleet is military.

This much I heard is somewhat true at the academies like west point and annapolis. They pretty much have a court system where you are judged by other cadets/midshipman

 

[Cyke101]

I'd like to ask the OP's opinion of the attack on the Kelvin as a depiction of Starfleet, if only because it was in a different era. If the OP's complaints about an incompetent Starfleet are valid, does that mean the Kelvin and her crew acted the same?

To me at least, the way Robau and George Kirk handled the situation, turning death into a fighting chance for life, was superb. Flash forward 28 years later and the promotion of Cadet to Captain Kirk was pret-ty jarring, so in my opinion, that's two ends of the spectrum.

 

[Thrawn]

Oh, for christ's sake.

You're comparing this to the original series, right? You know, the one that couldn't decide on the name of the organization or most of the alien races for about a year? That freely changed the organizational structure and invented random crap as it went along? That had no semblance of anything remotely resembling naval discipline?

I'm sorry that this movie didn't suspend your disbelief well enough, but you can't argue it's any less coherent than the original show.

Really, I think this movie is more like TOS than anything we've gotten since; back to a Trek that wasn't concerned much with canon, or organizational structure, or plausibility (go ahead: I dare you, tell me TOS was ever plausible), but mostly just wanted to have a good time and tell good stories.

 

[Saga]

i just thought it was funny. we have a crisis on Vulcan. well, lets load up the kids and see whats going on.