Pathetic Showing for Starfleet

[Squiggy]

Major smackdown to follow...

Major spoilers to follow ...

One of the things that disappointed me about the new film was the loosey goosey portrayal of Starfleet. What we saw was an organization with a flimsy organizational structure and a total lack of the military-esque discipline we have seen in every other incarnation of the show.

It's one thing to have commanders simply replacing their bridge officers at will. But look at that scene at the Academy that leads to the mission to Vulcan.

First, we get Kirk being totally called out for a disciplinary action in front of the whole academy. WTF. Is there any way this isn't handled privately?

First, why are you complaining about that? If you wanted a militaryesque thing, this is a militaryesque thing. You fuck up, you get called out in public. It tends to make you not do it again lest you wanna look like a jackass infront of everyone.

Secondly. Star Trek IV

Then, the whole idea that the fleet is away on exercises and can't go to Vulcan. Huh? The whole fleet of ships tasked with exploring the galaxy are all exploring one specific sector of it at the same time?

Star Trek I. Star Trek IV. Star Trek V. Star Trek IV.

Except for the seven or so ships that happen to be in Earth orbit.

More than we've ever seen in Earth orbit before.

But these ships don't have an actual crew and need the friggin' cadets to staff them?

Star Trek II. Star Trek V.

WTF? Why would Starfleet keep ships in orbit and no one around to staff them, especially the new flagship of the fleet?

Do you not know what a "dock" is?

And then six of the ships are wiped out in the first minutes of the battle, killing how many cadets? That should lead to some lawsuits from some angry parents.

Uhh...like how the US Army gets sued?

Then we get acting captains tossing people off their ship on a whim, which is just bad form.

Oh heavens no. Not bad form! He didn't toss his ship out on a "whim". Insubordination. It's a military thing you seem to be wanting to see.

And on top of that, one of the cadets disobeys orders several times and ends up saving the day. And for this he not only gets to graduate the academy early, but gets to skip the general rank structure to become Captain of the friggin flagship? WTF?

Yeah. That never happens in Star Trek, does it?

Not to mention that the guy who was actually acting captain of the ship did as much to save Earth, and he just kind of gets passed over, especially after his planet is blown up.

Again, if you're asking for more military-esque discipline you promote the guy that earned it...not the next guy in line because you feel sorry his mom died in a spectacular fashion. Be consistant.

His only real lapse is when the other guy goaded him into an outburst. I'd say under the circumstances Spock acted beautifully.

Choking a suborinate. Great "military" you've got going here.

Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.

Yes.

 

[KendraW]

Yeah i agree with you on thoes points.

If i were the vulcan people i'd be seriously wondering why they ever bother joining the federation for protection when a massive romulan ship can just show up a blow the crap out of their entire planet.

I think they'd be bringing a case up about neglegence at the very least.

 

[Cheebo]

Yeah, there's no getting around this one. NuStarfleet is pretty weird. You can join just by hopping on a shuttle, no entrance exams. Crewmen are cadets are lieutenants (Uhura was referred to as all three in the same scene). I can understand them wanting to let go of minutiae, but they kinda took that to an extreme.

I thought Kirk already did take the exams. Didn't Pike say he had off the chart results and wondered why he never joined?

 

[KendraW]

Major smackdown to follow...

Again, if you're asking for more military-esque discipline you promote the guy that earned it...not the next guy in line because you feel sorry his mom died in a spectacular fashion. Be consistant.

and his race was obliterated, his home, entire home world including his family and future wife and what ever friends/acquantinces he did have. being a bit harsh here i think.

 

[Squiggy]

All the more reason not to have him in charge.

 

[cmdrbolly]

What about Spock? He destroyed the drill. No medal there. He lured the Narada away from Earth and rammed the Jellyfish into the Narada ending Nero's threat. No medal there.

The Federation is clearly racist.

 

[KendraW]

All the more reason not to have him in charge.

really logical to pass it on to the ungraduated cadet who was left as first officer... i think not.

the story doesn't fit but hey i still enjoyed the movie

 

[Praetor]

It all falls under the Only Ship in the Quadrant Clause (tm), obviously. More or less the same thing happened in TWOK, if you'll recall.

I found it interesting that the Laurentian System (where the Enterprise was to rendezvous with the rest of the fleet - and just why were they engaged there?) seemed to be named for the Laurentian Abyss, an incredibly deep ocean valley that featured in both "The Hunt for Red October" and perhaps more interestingly "Transformers." (It was where Megatron was dumpted in the latter.)

Perhaps this was a dramatic symbol on the writers part that had the Enterprise gone there, she would not have returned?

 

[pookha]

Yeah i agree with you on thoes points.

If i were the vulcan people i'd be seriously wondering why they ever bother joining the federation for protection when a massive romulan ship can just show up a blow the crap out of their entire planet.

I think they'd be bringing a case up about neglegence at the very least.

a massive romulan ship with technology 129 years in the future of all of the ships.

and they didnt know it was an attack they thought it was some phenomena going on.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

If i were the vulcan people i'd be seriously wondering why they ever bother joining the federation for protection when a massive romulan ship can just show up a blow the crap out of their entire planet.

I think they'd be bringing a case up about neglegence at the very least.

Well, from what we know of the Vulcans they are isolationists - at least somewhat so. They discourage members from joining Starfleet. They turned into an endangered race after the destruction of one planet, so they obviously did not have a wide array of colonies. Thus expecting Starfleet to keep them entirely safe is kinda asking too much.

 

[Vader47000]

I actually didn't mind that he was called out. I just wondered if they would actually do that in the real military. It seemed too over the top.

Star Trek IV was more of an actual trial. The new movie treated it more as a point of interest during a meeting.

Then, the whole idea that the fleet is away on exercises and can't go to Vulcan. Huh? The whole fleet of ships tasked with exploring the galaxy are all exploring one specific sector of it at the same time?

Star Trek I. Star Trek IV. Star Trek V. Star Trek IV.

You're missing the point. This segment wasn't about the lack of ships at Earth. It was about why the entire fleet was in one sector. It seems if there was some serious shit going down there, THAT should have been the focus of the movie.

Originally Posted by Vader47000
But these ships don't have an actual crew and need the friggin' cadets to staff them?

Star Trek II. Star Trek V.

In Star Trek II the ship was specifically designated as a training ship. In Star Trek V it was staffed normally. It was just new.

Originally Posted by Vader47000
WTF? Why would Starfleet keep ships in orbit and no one around to staff them, especially the new flagship of the fleet?

Do you not know what a "dock" is?

That's no reason not to have an actual crew standing by when the ship is needed. If they are on shore leave, then shore leave is canceled. And if the ship is docked because it is either being repaired or is not ready, then you don't send it.

Originally Posted by Vader47000
And then six of the ships are wiped out in the first minutes of the battle, killing how many cadets? That should lead to some lawsuits from some angry parents.

Uhh...like how the US Army gets sued?

I dunno. Is the Army in the habit of plucking cadets from West Point and putting them in harm's way before their training is complete?

Originally Posted by Vader47000
Then we get acting captains tossing people off their ship on a whim, which is just bad form.

Oh heavens no. Not bad form! He didn't toss his ship out on a "whim". Insubordination. It's a military thing you seem to be wanting to see.

That's why ships have a brig, dude. To hold the guy until he can get a trial. On the other hand, it's a great way to set up the one character meeting another character he needs to meet to further the plot.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the example of what Kirk did to Khan in Space Seed. But even there, Kirk held a hearing, and gave Khan the choice.

Originally Posted by Vader47000
And on top of that, one of the cadets disobeys orders several times and ends up saving the day. And for this he not only gets to graduate the academy early, but gets to skip the general rank structure to become Captain of the friggin flagship? WTF?

Yeah. That never happens in Star Trek, does it?

In Star Trek IV, Kirk was an ADMIRAL, having earned that position during a 30-year career. He was then DEMOTED to captain, setting up his return to a command. This was Starfleet both punishing him for disobeying orders, and rewarding him.

That is a far cry from letting a guy skip six ranks.

Originally Posted by Vader47000
Not to mention that the guy who was actually acting captain of the ship did as much to save Earth, and he just kind of gets passed over, especially after his planet is blown up.

Again, if you're asking for more military-esque discipline you promote the guy that earned it...not the next guy in line because you feel sorry his mom died in a spectacular fashion. Be consistant.

Yes, you can promote him. One rank. Maybe two. Not six. And not all the way to the big chair.
Nor am I suggesting Spock needs to be promoted as well, though he was the one piloting the ship that saved Earth and destroyed the Narada. You just find another Captain-level officer and give him command.

His only real lapse is when the other guy goaded him into an outburst. I'd say under the circumstances Spock acted beautifully.

Choking a suborinate. Great "military" you've got going here.

He was goaded into it. I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that under the circumstances, one has to be surprised Spock didn't break down more.

 

[Vader47000]

It all falls under the Only Ship in the Quadrant Clause (tm), obviously. More or less the same thing happened in TWOK, if you'll recall.

I found it interesting that the Laurentian System (where the Enterprise was to rendezvous with the rest of the fleet - and just why were they engaged there?) seemed to be named for the Laurentian Abyss, an incredibly deep ocean valley that featured in both "The Hunt for Red October" and perhaps more interestingly "Transformers." (It was where Megatron was dumpted in the latter.)

Perhaps this was a dramatic symbol on the writers part that had the Enterprise gone there, she would not have returned?

The reference was probably deliberate. The Star Trek writers wrote Transformers.

 

[triox]

Yeah, there's no getting around this one. NuStarfleet is pretty weird. You can join just by hopping on a shuttle, no entrance exams. Crewmen are cadets are lieutenants (Uhura was referred to as all three in the same scene). I can understand them wanting to let go of minutiae, but they kinda took that to an extreme.

You didn't see the movie did you? Kirk was in starfleet. Uhura was promoted.

 

[Trekker4747]

Yeah i agree with you on thoes points.

If i were the vulcan people i'd be seriously wondering why they ever bother joining the federation for protection when a massive romulan ship can just show up a blow the crap out of their entire planet.

I think they'd be bringing a case up about neglegence at the very least.

The Vulcans didn't "join" the Federation. They co-founded it.

Also, again, no one knew they were being attacked. Only that they were having troubles of some sort (the Romulan ship disrupted communications) the ship also heavily out gunned any ship in the century.

 

[Praetor]

It all falls under the Only Ship in the Quadrant Clause (tm), obviously. More or less the same thing happened in TWOK, if you'll recall.

I found it interesting that the Laurentian System (where the Enterprise was to rendezvous with the rest of the fleet - and just why were they engaged there?) seemed to be named for the Laurentian Abyss, an incredibly deep ocean valley that featured in both "The Hunt for Red October" and perhaps more interestingly "Transformers." (It was where Megatron was dumpted in the latter.)

Perhaps this was a dramatic symbol on the writers part that had the Enterprise gone there, she would not have returned?

The reference was probably deliberate. The Star Trek writers wrote Transformers.

I know. That's why it was more interesting.

My only question is, what's their obsession with the Laurentian abyss?

 

[Qonos]

Now the next question is where are all the Vulcan Starships, because although they were part of the Federation there were not very many Vulcans in Starfleet during the TOS era

The Federation and Starfleet are two different entities. Starfleet may be a part of the Federation but most Vulcans were not compelled to serve in it and it was a major sticking point between Spock and Sarek..


So where was the Vulcan Starfleet???

 

[Hambone]

How many times has the Enterprise been the only ship to respond to some situation?

If we want to see stories about Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise, this is the way it has to be. It's not about realism; it's about telling stories with characters we know and care about.

Although the whole "Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant" plot device kind of reminds me of Wilt Chamberlain scoring 100 points in a single game. The rest of the team is standing there yelling "Hey...I'm open!"

 

[Hambone]

I dunno. Is the Army in the habit of plucking cadets from West Point and putting them in harm's way before their training is complete?

During WWII, the US Army had this great type of officer known derogatorily as a "90-day wonder". Three months of training and they were on the front lines, commanding battlefield units. Three months! From what I've read, they were not held in much esteem by their men, and the officers had to earn their respect in combat or face the risk of being "fragged".

This was done because the country was at war, in a high state of alert, and officers were scarce. Kind of the same deal as we saw in Star Trek.