Nero's hatred of Spock makes no sense.

[erebus]

...Maybe some faction of the Romulan government said "screw Spock and his Federation, we can do this" and shot subspace weapons at it, which caused it to accelerate....

haha yeah i like it! thats a good idea. Maybe it was political sabotage by a disgruntled Conservative Romulan faction (yes, i like it even though not sure how they'd have the tech ability, it kind of makes sense from an Imperial politics sort of view).

Actually our discussion does remind me of what i heard JJ say in an interview that star trek was not about science more about characters so i guess you have picked up on that with all the holes in plot and science.

 

[RoJoHen]

Khan was just cranky that Kirk never came back to visit him.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Khan was just cranky that Kirk never came back to visit him.

Yeah there was some real chemistry going on between the two of them during that first date. Khan had even waxed his chest. And Kirk never came back. Bastard.

 

[blockaderunner]

Um.....OF COURSE IT MADE NO SENSE! That was the whole point. I would imagine that the OP isn't married and has kids. Speaking as someone who is, as misplaced as dead wrong his actions were, I could identify with his feelings. If my family was lost in a cataclysmic event, I'd probably go apeshit and go after whoever was responsible. It might be wrong, but in that state of mind, I might not care. If I lost everything that mattered to me, I'd go all out because I'd have nothing to lose, which is why Nero was prepared to die.

It's time for Trekkies to get out of that logical post TNG mindset and realize that this new Trek is dealing with real people with real emotions.

 

[Ryan8bit]

That's exactly my point: Kirk didn't wrong him at all. Some might argue that he did, but I don't see it. Khan was an idiot. That's all there is to it.

Initially, yes, Khan was the aggressor. But it's not as if he tried destroying Earth as his first goal. He just had delusions of grandeur and desires for authority. When he failed in commandeering a ship (a far cry from multigenocide) and was defeated by Kirk, he was exiled. Because Kirk defeated him, he had some animosity towards him, and this was amplified by the fact that no one ever checked in on them. He felt as if they were left to die, not to survive.

You can't say the same for Nero because he is the shade of black. There is no shade of gray, there is not even a semblance of sanity, and his story is totally glossed over if he did have these things. The point is that they needed to expand upon it and make it more reasonable. This wasn't impossible to do.

But use Khan to prove that Nero had no motivation is faulty logic.

Agreed. But I never brought up Khan in the first place, you did. And I've seen other posts in the other several Nero threads where you essentially lash out at a few other Trek villains just to exonerate Nero.

From a totally neutral standpoint, I believe Nero to not have been given the proper time to develop, and because of that shortcoming, I find his motives to be strange. I'm not comparing him to previous villains, but just my own idea of what a villain should be. If you want to say Khan or Chang or anyone else wasn't a good villain, fine. That doesn't change the fact that Nero wasn't good either.

 

[Ryan8bit]

If my family was lost in a cataclysmic event, I'd probably go apeshit and go after whoever was responsible. It might be wrong, but in that state of mind, I might not care. If I lost everything that mattered to me, I'd go all out because I'd have nothing to lose, which is why Nero was prepared to die.

Same here, except I wouldn't target someone who wasn't responsible.

Put it like this, let's say my family died in a flood. Should I blame the government for not providing adequate relief? Should I blame them in such a way that I kill all their families just to have them feel the same way, even though they aren't directly responsible? Should I blame someone else when it was within my power to save them myself?

Also consider that they don't give us a reason to feel for him in such a way. They just tell and do not show; a big no-no in terms of storytelling.

 

[blockaderunner]

If my family was lost in a cataclysmic event, I'd probably go apeshit and go after whoever was responsible. It might be wrong, but in that state of mind, I might not care. If I lost everything that mattered to me, I'd go all out because I'd have nothing to lose, which is why Nero was prepared to die.

Same here, except I wouldn't target someone who wasn't responsible.

Put it like this, let's say my family died in a flood. Should I blame the government for not providing adequate relief? Should I blame them in such a way that I kill all their families just to have them feel the same way, even though they aren't directly responsible? Should I blame someone else when it was within my power to save them myself?

Also consider that they don't give us a reason to feel for him in such a way. They just tell and do not show; a big no-no in terms of storytelling.

I got the jist of it and I'm sure most of the audience did as well. Not everybody who contributed to Trek's success last weekend didn't need every minute detail of backstory to enjoy it like us Trekkies sometimes do. That's what novels are for.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I got the jist of it and I'm sure most of the audience did as well. Not everybody who contributed to Trek's success last weekend didn't need every minute detail of backstory to enjoy it like us Trekkies sometimes do. That's what novels are for.

I think a lot of people are just willing to overlook it, suspend disbelief, or just generally turn their brain off and look at all the pretty bells and whistles. I try to do that, as much as sometimes I don't want to. I feel like Star Trek should be intelligent, well thought out, and sensible without supplements. I don't like having to ignore so much just to enjoy a story, and I wish I didn't have to turn my brain off. Don't get me wrong here, I did enjoy a lot of the movie and story. It's just that a lot of little things bugged me that could've been easily fixed. And hey, what would the Star Trek boards be without nitpicking?

 

[Sky]

Um.....OF COURSE IT MADE NO SENSE! That was the whole point. I would imagine that the OP isn't married and has kids. Speaking as someone who is, as misplaced as dead wrong his actions were, I could identify with his feelings. If my family was lost in a cataclysmic event, I'd probably go apeshit and go after whoever was responsible. It might be wrong, but in that state of mind, I might not care. If I lost everything that mattered to me, I'd go all out because I'd have nothing to lose, which is why Nero was prepared to die.

Yeah but...

Let's say your family is lost in a cataclysmic event and then you're thrown back in the past. You now have two options:

a) working towards changing the future so that your family will not die in the cataclysmic event

b) going after someone who was not able to prevent the cataclysmic event (which at any rate won't happen for a looooong while yet), at the same time sacrificing both yourself and any chances of preventing the demise of your family?

Now, if it was only one guy on the Narada and he was barking mad, I mean absolutely drooling, then I could perhaps see him picking option b. Perhaps. But how in hell did he convince his whole crew that waiting around for 25 years and then picking option b was the right choice?

 

[blockaderunner]

Now, if it was only one guy on the Narada and he was barking mad, I mean absolutely drooling, then I could perhaps see him picking option b. Perhaps. But how in hell did he convince his whole crew that waiting around for 25 years and then picking option b was the right choice?

Justr guessing here, but I think his crewmates were miners as well who lost loved ones in the same circumstances. Perhaps the shaved heads and tattoos are some kind of miner designation. They were probably all angry and hurt. Nero was probably the only one among them to give them purpose.

Just guessing here.

 

[RoJoHen]

Now, if it was only one guy on the Narada and he was barking mad, I mean absolutely drooling, then I could perhaps see him picking option b. Perhaps. But how in hell did he convince his whole crew that waiting around for 25 years and then picking option b was the right choice?

Justr guessing here, but I think his crewmates were miners as well who lost loved ones in the same circumstances. Perhaps the shaved heads and tattoos are some kind of miner designation. They were probably all angry and hurt. Nero was probably the only one among them to give them purpose.

Just guessing here.

The shaved heads and tattoos were meant to be a Romulan ritual of mourning. At least it was according to the comic.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I think his crewmates were miners as well who lost loved ones in the same circumstances. Perhaps the shaved heads and tattoos are some kind of miner designation. They were probably all angry and hurt. Nero was probably the only one among them to give them purpose.

Just guessing here.

But would they all accept that this purpose was seemingly blind? Maybe one Romulan can wait around for 25 years, but can they all? If Nero really was insane, must they all be? Wouldn't one of them have the decent idea that they could prevent it from ever happening? Doesn't one of them have a shred of morality?

 

[nahidiot]

If he insisted on revenge why not kill the people who refused to listen to Spock?

1. Spock gained Nero's confidence.
2. Spock failed.
3. Nero felt betrayed by Spock. He felt Spock set him up.
4. The time travel was an accident.

--Well, you see, it's a pretty awesome "accident" to arrive back in time so you can prevent the destruction of Romulus in the future. I'd have been pretty relieved.

Basically, Nero just felt fucked over and wanted the person he held responsible to pay for it.... which might also be because Spock was the only one who was left to blame.

--Well, you see, it hadn't happened yet, and he was conscious of time travel. So he could have used Spock to prevent the destruction that had not occurred.

Same with Nero. Ultimately, I don't care where he comes from. He's from the future. He's pissed at Spock. Somehow Romulus got destroyed, and he blames the Vulcans and the Humans. That's really all that matters.

--Romulus is not destroyed in the past, where he knows he currently is. So no, it doesn't make sense to not focus on saving Romulus in the future.

Crazy, isn't it?

Oh, and you know, if we only consider the evidence as presented onscreen, we could argue that Nero ran into Spock who was en route to destroy the nova the minute Romulus got roasted. How would you feel?

--You would feel pretty happy that you got transported into the past as a result, and therefore could prevent the destruction of Romulus after all.

He then destroyed Vulcan so that Spock could share his pain.

--The pain from what? Realizing that your planet is not destroyed and that you individually now have the power to be the hero of the Romulan present and future by preventing it? Not to mention that you now have red matter, which would be quite a nice little weapon for Romulans?

 

[emacs]

"He was insane, insane people do things that don't make sense ...

yes. exactly.

 

[RoJoHen]

--Romulus is not destroyed in the past, where he knows he currently is. So no, it doesn't make sense to not focus on saving Romulus in the future.

I guarantee he's more pissed about his wife and unborn child being killed than he is about saving the Romulan Empire. His life is essentially over. All he cares about is revenge.

--The pain from what? Realizing that your planet is not destroyed and that you individually now have the power to be the hero of the Romulan present and future by preventing it? Not to mention that you now have red matter, which would be quite a nice little weapon for Romulans?

Again, he's not really that concerned with the fate of Romulus. He's not a soldier or a loyal member of the Empire. He's just an average citizen whose wife and child were just killed. Yes, the Empire is important to him, but nowhere near as important as the love he lost. Even if he can prevent the destruction of Romulus, he'll never get his wife back.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

That's exactly my point: Kirk didn't wrong him at all. Some might argue that he did, but I don't see it. Khan was an idiot. That's all there is to it.

Initially, yes, Khan was the aggressor. But it's not as if he tried destroying Earth as his first goal. He just had delusions of grandeur and desires for authority. When he failed in commandeering a ship (a far cry from multigenocide) and was defeated by Kirk, he was exiled. Because Kirk defeated him, he had some animosity towards him, and this was amplified by the fact that no one ever checked in on them. He felt as if they were left to die, not to survive.

You can't say the same for Nero because he is the shade of black. There is no shade of gray, there is not even a semblance of sanity, and his story is totally glossed over if he did have these things. The point is that they needed to expand upon it and make it more reasonable. This wasn't impossible to do.

But use Khan to prove that Nero had no motivation is faulty logic.

Agreed. But I never brought up Khan in the first place, you did. And I've seen other posts in the other several Nero threads where you essentially lash out at a few other Trek villains just to exonerate Nero.

From a totally neutral standpoint, I believe Nero to not have been given the proper time to develop, and because of that shortcoming, I find his motives to be strange. I'm not comparing him to previous villains, but just my own idea of what a villain should be. If you want to say Khan or Chang or anyone else wasn't a good villain, fine. That doesn't change the fact that Nero wasn't good either.

GAH!

I didn't accuse you of anything, my friend. I just don't get how people can criticise one of them and hero-worship the other even if they're both kind of dumb. So, since I empathise with the one and not the other, I figured it must be because liking and empathy are subjective in the first place. You're right, I would have liked to see more of him, but alas! I didn't. And what I got sufficed. May not be that way for you or many others, but it is for me, and I'm not alone in this.

 

[jealousblues]

Spock was the only person who attempted to help Nero and the rest of Romulus.

Of all people why travel through time (and waste 25 years of his life)in an attempt to kill the single person in the universe that tried to help him? Why not just go back in time and save Romulus?

If he insisted on revenge why not kill the people who refused to listen to Spock?

Am I missing something here? If not Nero's motivations make zero sense and he may be the dumbest of all trek villians.

Nero didn't have the power of time travel, it was the actions of Spock that allowed him to go back into time. The only way he could have directly changed those events was if he had waited over 100 years (assuming he was still alive) and then attempt it.

With that possibility eliminated, his only action was revenge.

couldnt he have just told someone to collect the red matter stuff and have it ready in advance. He would even know the exact date it would happen

 

[CommanderRaytas]

We should all just go and ask him.

 

[Tikkun]

Emotions don't make sense. If they did, they would be thoughts. At best, emotions lead to rationalizations, usually after action.

If Nero doesn't hate Spock, who can he hate? I think it's as simple as that.

 

[VOODOOXI]

Um.....OF COURSE IT MADE NO SENSE! That was the whole point. I would imagine that the OP isn't married and has kids. Speaking as someone who is, as misplaced as dead wrong his actions were, I could identify with his feelings. If my family was lost in a cataclysmic event, I'd probably go apeshit and go after whoever was responsible. It might be wrong, but in that state of mind, I might not care. If I lost everything that mattered to me, I'd go all out because I'd have nothing to lose, which is why Nero was prepared to die.

It's time for Trekkies to get out of that logical post TNG mindset and realize that this new Trek is dealing with real people with real emotions.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'd take revenge on the one person who tired to help me too...WTF?

I love your line about it's time for Trekkies to get out of the logical past... Yeah, we wouldn't want our films to make sense now would we?

Your post makes about as much sense as Nero's motivation in this film.