Re: Disappointed (Spoilers)
You do realize this has been a problem with every story to use time travel to date, right?
You do realize this has been a problem with every story to use time travel to date, right?
The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Agent Richard07
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Re: Disappointed (Spoilers)
I loved the movie itself but I think I'd have liked it even more if they hadn't left the viewer in the alternate universe at the end of the movie. IMHO, they could have destroyed a planet that wasn't Vulcan, and left most of the plot the same without branching into a different universe.
Still, then I guess there would be a group of people crying about the inconsistencies. At least this way they can be satisfied that their universe is untainted and still exists the same as before. While I know that I can appreciate this new incarnation of Trek.
Just wish I could bring the two into a single narrative beyond the initial branching point. A shame.
My vote: Excellent.
I'll try and post a longer list of thoughts sometime when it isn't 3:30 a.m.
I loved the movie itself but I think I'd have liked it even more if they hadn't left the viewer in the alternate universe at the end of the movie. IMHO, they could have destroyed a planet that wasn't Vulcan, and left most of the plot the same without branching into a different universe.
Still, then I guess there would be a group of people crying about the inconsistencies. At least this way they can be satisfied that their universe is untainted and still exists the same as before. While I know that I can appreciate this new incarnation of Trek.
Just wish I could bring the two into a single narrative beyond the initial branching point. A shame.
My vote: Excellent.
I'll try and post a longer list of thoughts sometime when it isn't 3:30 a.m.
Robert DeSoto
Lieutenant Commander
Re: Disappointed (Spoilers)
wow I wasnt expecting 10 replies in like 20 mins lol
anyway, just to clarify, I'm not saying this violates canon. I understand its an alternate universe. I'm just saying, if its not the real universe, I just dont care for them quite the same way.
For example, the mirror universe is canon. And its even fun to watch. But when the Alliance conquers the Terran Empire and kills the mirror universe Sisko, I just think ok thats pretty cool. I dont really care if any of the Terrans live or die as long as the episode itself is interesting. The mirror Sisko isnt the real Sisko.
But when the Dominion invades Federation space, or the real Sisko's life is in danger, then I have to see how Sisko survives or how the Federation defeats the Dominion.
Having this alternate timeline is to me, like making a mirror universe movie. It can still be a great movie. But I just don't care about them the same way. What happens in that universe has no impact on the universe that I know and love. Kirk and Spock could die, the Enterprise could be destroyed. It would make no difference to me.
wow I wasnt expecting 10 replies in like 20 mins lol
anyway, just to clarify, I'm not saying this violates canon. I understand its an alternate universe. I'm just saying, if its not the real universe, I just dont care for them quite the same way.
For example, the mirror universe is canon. And its even fun to watch. But when the Alliance conquers the Terran Empire and kills the mirror universe Sisko, I just think ok thats pretty cool. I dont really care if any of the Terrans live or die as long as the episode itself is interesting. The mirror Sisko isnt the real Sisko.
But when the Dominion invades Federation space, or the real Sisko's life is in danger, then I have to see how Sisko survives or how the Federation defeats the Dominion.
Having this alternate timeline is to me, like making a mirror universe movie. It can still be a great movie. But I just don't care about them the same way. What happens in that universe has no impact on the universe that I know and love. Kirk and Spock could die, the Enterprise could be destroyed. It would make no difference to me.
Re: Disappointed (Spoilers)
First Contact still happened...in a different reality than the one seen in this movie, although I'm at a loss as to why First Contact couldn't still happen in this alternate reality.
There are no paradoxes created in the film because every change made in the original timeline simply created a new one, leaving the original unchanged. Nero and Old Spock were still around because they now existed in the new universe, and had disappeared from their original universe. I'm not seeing where others are finding a paradox here.
First Contact still happened...in a different reality than the one seen in this movie, although I'm at a loss as to why First Contact couldn't still happen in this alternate reality.
There are no paradoxes created in the film because every change made in the original timeline simply created a new one, leaving the original unchanged. Nero and Old Spock were still around because they now existed in the new universe, and had disappeared from their original universe. I'm not seeing where others are finding a paradox here.
Listen carefully when you see the film next time. There's a scene in sickbay -- I THINK when McCoy takes over CMO -- that as he heads offscreen, he calls out for Nurse Chapel.
Re: Disappointed (Spoilers)
Of course they're still around, they are in a universe branched off from their own, not their own universe. It's not their universe that changed, it's a new universe created from the point they changed the time line. Which is consistent with current theory.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Yes he does! I've seen the movie three times now and can't fucking wait to see it tonight in English for the first time!
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Anyone noticed the tribble that was supposed to be in the movie ?
I never saw it.
I never saw it.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
On Delta Vega. Behind Scotty in a cage.
Ah...I'll look for it when I see it again
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread (Spoilers)
It still happend, in the past of this timeline.
The Borg and Picard's Enterprise came from another timeline (in which no time-travelers interfered with the first contact) to this one (in which 'Enterprise' occur but the Kelvin-incedent doesn't happen).
Picard and Co. then traveled back to their time (but not to their timeline - actually they should have met themselves when they returned to the 23rd century).
Now, the Narada comes from the future of this FC, Enterprise-timeline and destroyes the Kelvin, which creates a new chain of events aka a new timeline (the one we witness in this film).
So, even though we are now in a completely new timeline, the events from First Contact still happend... but they are not going to happen... (Do you now understand why temporal paradoxa give Janeway head-aches?
)
It still happend, in the past of this timeline.
The Borg and Picard's Enterprise came from another timeline (in which no time-travelers interfered with the first contact) to this one (in which 'Enterprise' occur but the Kelvin-incedent doesn't happen).
Picard and Co. then traveled back to their time (but not to their timeline - actually they should have met themselves when they returned to the 23rd century).
Now, the Narada comes from the future of this FC, Enterprise-timeline and destroyes the Kelvin, which creates a new chain of events aka a new timeline (the one we witness in this film).
So, even though we are now in a completely new timeline, the events from First Contact still happend... but they are not going to happen... (Do you now understand why temporal paradoxa give Janeway head-aches?
)
ST-One
Vice Admiral
You will hear is purring before you see it.
Looking forward to seeing it a third time tomorrow
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread (Spoilers)
I'm still not seeing a paradox. Picard and crew go back from Timeline A, into the past of Timeline A. They fix what the Borg screwed up, then go back home. (One could argue that the changes made by Picard would result in the E-E returning to a slightly different universe than the one they left, since the Borg had already done some damage and the past was changed...but that only complicates things for the sake of my point.)
Then, Nero goes back from Timeline A and encounters the Kelvin. The moment the Kelvin is destroyed, Timeline A branches off into Timeline B, which is the timeline we see throughout the entire movie. This doesn't change the events that happened in FC at all.
The point of this is....that with the theory of branching alternate timelines/universes is that even if one were to go back and change an event, the original universe would continue on, unchanged. The changes made would result in a new universe being created, and only there could the changes be seen and felt.
That's why all of the complaining about canon is so pointless. Your decision to go to work tomorrow or not could effect your entire future. It's not hard to imagine that 800+ lives being altered wouldn't have an enormous impact on the universe.
It still happend, in the past of this timeline.
The Borg and Picard's Enterprise came from another timeline (in which no time-travelers interfered with the first contact) to this one (in which 'Enterprise' occur but the Kelvin-incedent doesn't happen).
Picard and Co. then traveled back to their time (but not to their timeline - actually they should have met themselves when they returned to the 23rd century).
Now, the Narada comes from the future of this FC, Enterprise-timeline and destroyes the Kelvin, which creates a new chain of events aka a new timeline (the one we witness in this film).
So, even though we are now in a completely new timeline, the events from First Contact still happend... but they are not going to happen... (Do you now understand why temporal paradoxa give Janeway head-aches?
I'm still not seeing a paradox. Picard and crew go back from Timeline A, into the past of Timeline A. They fix what the Borg screwed up, then go back home. (One could argue that the changes made by Picard would result in the E-E returning to a slightly different universe than the one they left, since the Borg had already done some damage and the past was changed...but that only complicates things for the sake of my point.)
Then, Nero goes back from Timeline A and encounters the Kelvin. The moment the Kelvin is destroyed, Timeline A branches off into Timeline B, which is the timeline we see throughout the entire movie. This doesn't change the events that happened in FC at all.
The point of this is....that with the theory of branching alternate timelines/universes is that even if one were to go back and change an event, the original universe would continue on, unchanged. The changes made would result in a new universe being created, and only there could the changes be seen and felt.
That's why all of the complaining about canon is so pointless. Your decision to go to work tomorrow or not could effect your entire future. It's not hard to imagine that 800+ lives being altered wouldn't have an enormous impact on the universe.
The only thing I didn't like about the science of the movie is that the universe was so small. You can basically teleport from anywhere to anywhere, which is okay considering that teleportation may not be possible anyway. Going from Vulcan to Earth takes hours instead of days like was basically said before, things were made strictly just to make a good action film. There was always a bit of a science and limit to things in Star Trek's universe in the past. Yes sometimes that limit was crossed a little, but not as much. This movie was made in more of a Star Wars type fasion
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread (Spoilers)
No, actually.
If we disregard all other time-travels up to the point of FC (it's easier this way) then we would be in timeline/universe A.
The moment the Borg and Picard go back in time we are in timeline/universe B. This is the timeline/universe we follow in INS, Nemesis, Voyager (ignoring all of their various, different timelines), DS9 and Enterprise.
Now, this movie starts in timeline/universe B. But the arrival of the Narada and the destruction of the Kelvin by her create timeline/universe C. Which we now follow.
No, actually.
If we disregard all other time-travels up to the point of FC (it's easier this way) then we would be in timeline/universe A.
The moment the Borg and Picard go back in time we are in timeline/universe B. This is the timeline/universe we follow in INS, Nemesis, Voyager (ignoring all of their various, different timelines), DS9 and Enterprise.
Now, this movie starts in timeline/universe B. But the arrival of the Narada and the destruction of the Kelvin by her create timeline/universe C. Which we now follow.
I thought one of the best scenes was between Kirk and Spock on Delta Vega. "I have been and always shall be your friend".
The movie does leave open the possibility that everything we know happens in the prime time line, still happens but in a whole new way. Will the crew once again, find the SS Botany Bay????
-Chris
The movie does leave open the possibility that everything we know happens in the prime time line, still happens but in a whole new way. Will the crew once again, find the SS Botany Bay????
-Chris
Re: A review from a Kiwi perspective (spoilers aplenty so watch your s
When I read about the hands scene I was ready to cringe, but in execution it was a lot funnier than I thought it would be. Mainly due to...
...and Kirks reaction.
With Uhura and Spock... that was a surprise (though the Sun spoiled it a little, and a friend decided to text me that spoiler) but the moment in the Turbolift was a wonderful and with that relationship, as well as Vulcan gone, it might set up a more balanced Spock sooner than we've seen before.
The transporter pad scene was worth it just for Spocks closing line.
I think thats advanced on in the comic, but it has no place in the film. It's not essential knowledge for the plot. But then if you see Romulus destroyed it's easy to assume that the government was destroyed and the colonies would enter a power struggle.
Inside the film and it's plot Spocks promise of saving Romulus - Spock failed, he's gone batshit crazy and wants him to suffer. It all fits.
Heh, I actually felt really odd in Glasgow watching people around me wondering which of them posted here
Spock being more emotional makes perfect sense. In TMP he realised he needed to accept both halves, by TUC he stated logic was only the beginning of wisdom. All those years later he would only grow more comfortable and accepting of his emotional Human side.
With the latter part of that - it's all in the film. Spocks battling between his need to be a pure Vulcan and his emotions, especially after the death of his planet and his mother. Essentially... he went a bit batshit crazy. Which was also followed up by Kirk later.
In the context of the film it works nicely to have a conflicted young Spock, and a matured and happy older man. To see the begining and end of his emotional struggle.
On that - was I the only one that saw the Shatner shit eating grin at the end? Tiny moment and I may be seeing too much there - but I saw a nod to the old stuff.
I'll get a better feel for the buzz on Saturday night - I went to a preview on Thursday morning. 10am and there was a good few people waiting outside for the doors to open and the theatre wasn't full, but close, which I didn't expect to see a day before the official release on a Thursday morning.
There was a group next to me who were loving the film (I assume so, I don't speak Chinese but they sounded happy) though there was one older guy who walked out half way through. Everyone else was glued to their seats.
Really looking forward to a second viewing - it took most of yesterday to absorb the film.
When I read about the hands scene I was ready to cringe, but in execution it was a lot funnier than I thought it would be. Mainly due to...
...and Kirks reaction.
With Uhura and Spock... that was a surprise (though the Sun spoiled it a little, and a friend decided to text me that spoiler) but the moment in the Turbolift was a wonderful and with that relationship, as well as Vulcan gone, it might set up a more balanced Spock sooner than we've seen before.
The transporter pad scene was worth it just for Spocks closing line.
I think thats advanced on in the comic, but it has no place in the film. It's not essential knowledge for the plot. But then if you see Romulus destroyed it's easy to assume that the government was destroyed and the colonies would enter a power struggle.
Inside the film and it's plot Spocks promise of saving Romulus - Spock failed, he's gone batshit crazy and wants him to suffer. It all fits.
tee hee - I too was at the Melbourne IMAX early. Probably saw each other... Its a small internet/world isn't it
Heh, I actually felt really odd in Glasgow watching people around me wondering which of them posted here
Spock being more emotional makes perfect sense. In TMP he realised he needed to accept both halves, by TUC he stated logic was only the beginning of wisdom. All those years later he would only grow more comfortable and accepting of his emotional Human side.
With the latter part of that - it's all in the film. Spocks battling between his need to be a pure Vulcan and his emotions, especially after the death of his planet and his mother. Essentially... he went a bit batshit crazy. Which was also followed up by Kirk later.
In the context of the film it works nicely to have a conflicted young Spock, and a matured and happy older man. To see the begining and end of his emotional struggle.
On that - was I the only one that saw the Shatner shit eating grin at the end? Tiny moment and I may be seeing too much there - but I saw a nod to the old stuff.
I'll get a better feel for the buzz on Saturday night - I went to a preview on Thursday morning. 10am and there was a good few people waiting outside for the doors to open and the theatre wasn't full, but close, which I didn't expect to see a day before the official release on a Thursday morning.
There was a group next to me who were loving the film (I assume so, I don't speak Chinese but they sounded happy) though there was one older guy who walked out half way through. Everyone else was glued to their seats.
Really looking forward to a second viewing - it took most of yesterday to absorb the film.
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