A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I know godben is keeping track of how many photorps have been used, but has anyone figured out how many shuttles have crashed up to this point, or through the entire series?

It almost seems like it would average out 4-5 a season or something.

I'm willing to accept that some of them can be repaired, or even that they can build a limited amount of new ones since they built the Delta Flyer onboard, but I can't accept that they can keep building them forever.

While I'm thinking about it, I can't remember any of the shuttle names from Voy off the top of my head. Did it follow any kind of theme like TNG and DS9 with the runabouts? I assume Janeway gets to name them all.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Who cares if "Rise" had some character development, when it comes down to it it was horribly filmed and just plain boring.

In my opinion, character development is far more important than some bag of plot tricks - For any story, the characters are ultimately the most essential element of it. You can have the most by-the-numbers and predictable plot, but if your characters take what they learn in the story and it moves them forward, it can make all the difference. Episodes that mean something for the characters are always among my favorites - Buffy the Vampire Slayer's seventh season suffers from plot overload, but two of my all time favorite episodes are in it, because they focus so much on the characters. Likewise, back in the Trek universe, Tapestry from TNG is a brilliant hour because of how it shows Picard learning something very important about himself, and DS9's Nor the Battle to the Strong is a heavy episode about the realities of war to someone who has mostly be spared the grim truth - yes, Jake's mother died in the Borg attack, but as it's said later, the Borg are like a force of nature, and you can't hate them for it.

Even Voyager manages this, having some episodes where these little character moments are fully earned. However, so often it seems that they just include attempts at character moments to make it appear that the characters have learned something from what they've been through, but either the lesson's forgotten the next episode or their reason for needing the lesson was contrived just to give the character something to do this week. It's lazy writing to have the plot drive everything the characters do - one week, Janeway cautions patience and the next week it's 'punch your way through,' even though the situations are near-identical.

 

[plague]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Everyone,

Diplomacy. It's asking what someone means and taking their word rather than inferring at their intentions.

By the way, when I have enough posts, my avatar is going to be of me, since that's how I see me.

This has got to be the longest thread on this forum. I have to agree with most of the reviews, although there are still episodes that I haven't seen.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well the first couple of Buffy seasons are my favorite cuz there's more random monsters to fight!
I enjoy character development too but not when its attached to a boring plot like rise.
I'd rather have an entertaining episode with no character development than a boring episode with character development. Some episodes can combine the two like "Barge of the Dead" and "Lineage" (two of my favourite character development episodes in Voyager) but some can't like "Rise".

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

You have to wonder after awhile, how good are these shuttles that are constantly crashing? I wouldn't feel safe in them. Or is just pilot error?

 

[plague]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

You have to wonder after awhile, how good are these shuttles that are constantly crashing? I wouldn't feel safe in them. Or is just pilot error?

That is a good point! Although I'm assuming that the characters often refer to them crashing, not being attacked and destroyed? Since your memory is better than mine.

I only vaguely remember the whole shuttlecraft discrepancy argument. I wish I had more time to rewatch this show from beginning to end. I gave up the series before it ended and watched the series ending, and since then filled in some gaps, but still haven't seen them all.

 

[Michael]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

According to this list the Voyager lost probably seventeen (!) shuttles over the course of the series.

This site has some interesting quotes by the writers and producers of the series ...

As writers, we do not destroy shuttles out of cruel humor toward the fans. Rather, it is our rationale that the Voyager crew can simply build more of them. Or repair them. Etc. Shuttles are just a collection of steel and conduits and technology, like any other part of the ship. They can build them at will. No big deal.

Wow, this is complete bullshit. He sounds like he really believes the nonsense he is talking about. He also sounds a bit arrogant to me. And just to put that into perspective, I'm not one who usually bashes Braga. However, this statement is just ridiculous.

Lolita Fatjo on the other hand is honest and admits that it was a mistake ...

It was one of those things where we made a mistake.

And Bryan Fuller is just funny ...

Shuttles are like doritos. Keep eating them and we'll make more.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

17, wow!

The problem with his logic is that if it is so easy to build shuttles at will, why don't they just build another Starship to up their survival odds? The small crew isn't a problem, we've seen that 7 can basically run the entire ship herself. It just doesn't hold up.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

That's not as bad as them building the delta flyer in like a day..

 

[Tachyon]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

That's not as bad as them building the delta flyer in like a day..

Oh please. It took longer than that and you know it.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I enjoy character development too but not when its attached to a boring plot like rise.
I'd rather have an entertaining episode with no character development than a boring episode with character development.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely opposed to bizarre sci-fi plots if they are entertaining, Cause and Effect wasn't a character masterpiece but it is a classic TNG episode that I find hugely entertaining. The problem is that the standalone format was getting tired by the final season of TNG and it just got worse on Voyager, the stories either felt very generic or they went to ridiculous extremes in order to seem different from what came before.

And it wasn't just the stories which were getting old, the writing was suffering too. The fact that the Jeri Taylor who wrote The Drumhead is the same Jeri Taylor who wrote Coda is almost impossible to believe, one was a fantastically well-written episode and the other is... not.

According to this list the Voyager lost probably seventeen (!) shuttles over the course of the series.

Thanks for the link, that site is very useful! I appear to have missed the piece of dialogue in Unity which described Chakotay's shuttle as being scavenged beyond repair, I thought that he was in the same shuttle at the end of the episode but is seems was wrong. So I'm adding it to my counter.

Shuttles lost: 4

That's not as bad as them building the delta flyer in like a day..

Oh please. It took longer than that and you know it.

Yeah, it took them at least three days.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

One thing I've just remembered that annoyed me was the running gag they introduced in the later seasons about Janeway being a bad cook. Now okay, that's fine in itself - Sisko was a great cook, Janeway wasn't. We've seen it on a hundred sitcoms, but okay, ha ha.

But how the hell can you mess up a meal with a food replicator? There's even a reference to her burning a meatloaf or something. Bizarre.

 

[Mareika]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Sorry. Double post.

 

[Mareika]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Rise" almost made me slash my wrists with boredom. I really don't see how you could rate a fun romp like "Coda" below crap like "Rise".
Who cares if "Rise" had some character development, when it comes down to it it was horribly filmed and just plain boring.
I just don't understand what's going on in your mind GodBen

Agree.
I feel the same about this episodes. But like someone said- everyone is different and likes different episodes.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm curious, will I have to start another thread once this one reaches 1,000 posts? I know you have to do that in some other forums on this board, is it the same in the Voyager forum?

 

[Count Zero]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The old board software had problems handling threads that long but it's not a problem anymore.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

One thing I've just remembered that annoyed me was the running gag they introduced in the later seasons about Janeway being a bad cook. Now okay, that's fine in itself - Sisko was a great cook, Janeway wasn't. We've seen it on a hundred sitcoms, but okay, ha ha.

But how the hell can you mess up a meal with a food replicator? There's even a reference to her burning a meatloaf or something. Bizarre.

Yeah it was in "Ashes to Ashes" (suitable title considering her cooking!) and I thought it was just plain stupid.

 

[Lynx]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Rise

OK episode but not more than that. Some good interaction between Tuvok and Neelix and some good action scenes but the story is thin and predictable.

I'll give it 2 points out of 5.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

According to this list the Voyager lost probably seventeen (!) shuttles over the course of the series.

This site has some interesting quotes by the writers and producers of the series ...

As writers, we do not destroy shuttles out of cruel humor toward the fans. Rather, it is our rationale that the Voyager crew can simply build more of them. Or repair them. Etc. Shuttles are just a collection of steel and conduits and technology, like any other part of the ship. They can build them at will. No big deal.

Wow, this is complete bullshit. He sounds like he really believes the nonsense he is talking about. He also sounds a bit arrogant to me. And just to put that into perspective, I'm not one who usually bashes Braga. However, this statement is just ridiculous.

Lolita Fatjo on the other hand is honest and admits that it was a mistake ...

It was one of those things where we made a mistake.

And Bryan Fuller is just funny ...

Shuttles are like doritos. Keep eating them and we'll make more.

Seventeen?

Wow, thanks for those, NCC-1701. Braga's showing his ass there. Why do I get the feeling Fuller actually agrees with Fatjo?

Regarding the 1000 posts issue, I know that we restart the Great Screencap Game thread every time it gets to 1000...

And at the risk of mini-modding, let's all play nice. 'Star Trek' fans should be the more polite and sensitive genre fans. 'Post, not poster' and all that. No sense in getting in the way of GodBen's excellent reviews.

 

[JustKate]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

No, you don't have to stop a thread at 1,000 any more (unless the mod says so, of course). One of those Janeway threads in TrekLit went on well past 1,000 before it finally petered out. The mod there said pretty much what Count Zero said - the old software required threads to stop at 1,000 posts but the current software does not.

So I don't know why you have to restart the screencap game. I'd take it personally if I were you.