World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

[zacharyquintouk]

I wouldn't say I'm 'not bothered' by the destruction of Vulcan, but the film exists in an iffy time frame, so it could all be reversed/made never to have happened.

In fact I'd be surprised if the second film didn't feature them trying to go back and save Vulcan.

 

[indranee]

indeed... I also find it interesting, that Nimoy, that man that IS Spock, IS what Vulcan, their culture, everything, etc is based on, was moved to tears by the movie and felt honored to be a part of it.

Seems to me that if he isn't "offended" or "disturbed" by it, we should at least have an open mind...

Edit: Yay! 1,000th post!!! I'm a Fleet Captain Suckas!!!!

Congratulations man!

Shigitty....

great ava!

 

[Smiley]

The thing that bothered me more than the destruction of Vulcan was Romulus (Remus, too, I'm assuming) being destroyed in the original timeline. It works well for a motivation for Nero, but the explanation for how it happened and how Spock tried to prevent it in the movie were pretty weak. I'm hoping Alan Dean Foster's novelization covers that point in a little more depth.

However, that is my only quibble with the film. Everything else is done quite brilliantly, and I am eagerly awaiting the next installment in a couple of years.

 

[indranee]

You know, correct me if I am wrong, but the people that complain about Vulcan blowing up also seem to be the same people that haven't seen the movie yet... and those that have seen the movie, well, I don't think i have heard any complaints.....

Is there a pattern here???
Not sure...

No. The problem is whether or not "blowing up" Vulcan fits into the story they're trying to tell. In other words, is killing BILLLLLLIONS and BILLLILLLIONS of people by "blowing up" their planet really necessary? That's what I don't have confidence in. Does this make Trek more compelling? Does this open up even more story possibilities? Stories we couldn't have had otherwise?
For what it's worth, no one who's seen the movie has yet to say why the destruction of BILLIONS of people "works" within the context of the movie. Where's the payoff?

If Vulcan isn't destroyed there is nothing to move Spock to lose it on the bridge of the enterprise, therefore resigning his command. If he doesn't resign his command then Kirk as First Officer doesn't assume command and become Captain.

It had to be something big to make Spock attack Kirk and bounce him all over the bridge, and the fact that he knows Nero is capable of that destruction leads him to get involved in the Pike rescue mission and befriend Kirk to stop Earth from going the same way.

it wasn't *just* Vulcan, though. it was also his mother and his feelings for her.

I was thinking last night, having now seen the movie (and of course everything that came before it) -- the most interesting thing about the story that JJ tells us is not about heroism or destiny. it was about loss.

JJ and crew effectively mined the emotions of the characters to tell a kick-ass action-adventure story in the same tried-and-true vein of the great epics -- which Star Trek is anyway. I have to give him big, BIG kudos for that.

 

[indranee]

What was the mind meld like?

it basically showed Nero's backstory (or the story of Countdown). it was done well, but I wouldn't say it was one of the better-made parts of the movie. Spock Prime's voice narrates as we hear him as though in Kirk's mind. the montage showed Nero's wife and the destruction of Romulus. Kirk seemed very affected by it, breathing in a labored manner and sort of throwing himself away from Spock at the end of it.

 

[zacharyquintouk]

it wasn't *just* Vulcan, though. it was also his mother and his feelings for her.

I was thinking last night, having now seen the movie (and of course everything that came before it) -- the most interesting thing about the story that JJ tells us is not about heroism or destiny. it was about loss.

JJ and crew effectively mined the emotions of the characters to tell a kick-ass action-adventure story in the same tried-and-true vein of the great epics -- which Star Trek is anyway. I have to give him big, BIG kudos for that.

Yeah, I kind of meant the whole package. When they beam up and he's still reaching out for her - gulp - nearly cried!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I think this is one of those contradictions in TOS that ENT grabbed onto and exploited. it worked on ENT, I believe, to an extent.

Exactly. Enterprise was stuck with a seeming contradiction in the TOS backstory:

1) Vulcans had been traveling between the stars for much, much longer than human beings (otherwise, no Romulus);
2) Most of the near Galaxy appears to be unexplored.

Perhaps this is an age thing, I don't know. And people PLEASE don't take this as a beligerent or confrontational post because I seriously don't mean it that way. But I'm genuinely confused as to how someone who professes to be a fan of TOS can possibly be okay with Vulcan being destroyed. It just boggles my mind.

But as I said, it's probably (at least partially anyway) an age thing. I'm 48 and probably a lot older than most of you here. I was 5 when the TOS debuted, and I'm not 100% certain if I ever saw a first run episode in "real-time" or not, but I know I became a regular viewer of the syndicated reruns in the very early 70s and have been hooked ever since.

I'm in my mid-fifties. I was in junior high school (do they still have those, or is it "middle school" now) when Trek premiered on NBC and I watched it from the beginning. Been a fan ever since.

I don't have a problem with the writers destroying Vulcan in this movie. Not in the slightest. It's simply a different and new version of the Trek story, and the first version still exists.

You know what bothers me about the changing world, at my age? The decline of the American automobile industry bothers me greatly. It's not a political thing - it was just a cornerstone feature of the world I grew up in as I experienced it, and what's happening now is much more real than Star Trek.

 

[indranee]

it wasn't *just* Vulcan, though. it was also his mother and his feelings for her.

I was thinking last night, having now seen the movie (and of course everything that came before it) -- the most interesting thing about the story that JJ tells us is not about heroism or destiny. it was about loss.

JJ and crew effectively mined the emotions of the characters to tell a kick-ass action-adventure story in the same tried-and-true vein of the great epics -- which Star Trek is anyway. I have to give him big, BIG kudos for that.

Yeah, I kind of meant the whole package. When they beam up and he's still reaching out for her - gulp - nearly cried!

oh yes. that, actually, is the visual that stuck in my mind. I think I went to sleep last night with it, and woke up with it as well. very, very powerful.

Quinto was excellent throughout. if he doesn't get typecast, he should go far. he needs to choose a drama next (other than Trek).

however, having said that, I was impressed by ALL of them, especially Karl Urban. Ben Cross, I think, was the only weak link. more so because Mark Lenard was so very great as Sarek. Saldana, Cho, Yelchin and Pegg were all excellent, all wonderfully in character and yet brought something fresh into their interpretation. the chemistry is awesome between all of them, but most especially between Quinto and Pine. they literally sizzle (egads, I can just hear the fanfic-ers' pens sharpening! ) when they come close to each other. it's a full-on bromance much like Nimoy and the Shat.

Pine, though, was unbelievably good. he brought the vitality, the sass, the virile wildness of Kirk into almost what seemed effortless focus. halfway through the movie I thought -- this IS Kirk.

this cast is gold. JJ needs to keep 'em happy and around for the next one.

 

[zacharyquintouk]

however, having said that, I was impressed by ALL of them, especially Karl Urban. Ben Cross, I think, was the only weak link. more so because Mark Lenard was so very great as Sarek. Saldana, Cho, Yelchin and Pegg were all excellent, all wonderfully in character and yet brought something fresh into their interpretation. the chemistry is awesome between all of them, but most especially between Quinto and Pine. they literally sizzle (egads, I can just hear the fanfic-ers' pens sharpening! ) when they come close to each other. it's a full-on bromance much like Nimoy and the Shat.

Pine, though, was unbelievably good. he brought the vitality, the sass, the virile wildness of Kirk into almost what seemed effortless focus. halfway through the movie I thought -- this IS Kirk.

this cast is gold. JJ needs to keep 'em happy and around for the next one.

Well they've all signed for 3 so hopefully those contracts were nice and tight

I got excited as soon as Chris Pine and Zach started appearing in public together because they obviously had that kind of pally chemistry, and yes I think the fan ficcers can start their engines! There's already a Livejournal community for Spock and Uhura too, I notice.

 

[indranee]

really?! :LOL:

gotta go check that one out!

EDIT: I actually haven't quite subscribe to that yet. it's still leaving me a bit as to why they'd go for it. I can think of several reasons, most of it Spock-related, but it's still come out of a bit of a left field for me. I don't think they had the best chemistry, for one. Pine and Quinto were better

oh, and you know who else had great chemistry? Pine and Nimoy!! Nimoy's interaction with Pine's Kirk was wonderfully gentle and just.. very tender. it was as if Spock was reliving his old friend's presence all over again. Nimoy and Quinto's interaction somehow lacked this particular poignancy -- which is as it should be.

 

[zacharyquintouk]

really?! :LOL:

gotta go check that one out!

EDIT: I actually haven't quite subscribe to that yet. it's still leaving me a bit as to why they'd go for it. I can think of several reasons, most of it Spock-related, but it's still come out of a bit of a left field for me. I don't think they had the best chemistry, for one. Pine and Quinto were better

oh, and you know who else had great chemistry? Pine and Nimoy!!

It was one of the highlights of the film for me! It was just so unexpected and sweet, and Scotty and Kirk's reactions when they kiss on the transporter were hilarious.

True about Pine and Nimoy, I thought that really worked well. Even that ridiculuous ice beast was good

 

[gh4chiefs]

You know what bothers me about the changing world, at my age? The decline of the American automobile industry bothers me greatly. It's not a political thing - it was just a cornerstone feature of the world I grew up in as I experienced it, and what's happening now is much more real than Star Trek.

I said I wouldn't post any more, but after seeing this comment, I didn't feel I could leave it unchallenged. You were quoting me and appeared to responding to my comments in your post above.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the point you're making, but there appears to be an implication that I was putting Star Trek above the other issues of the world. If that was your intent, frankly I resent the implication and it's a VERY unfair comment to make. This is a Star Trek board and we're discussing STXI and a certain aspect of that film. It's not the forum for other issues. To try to imply that I value ST above what's going on the world is pretty damned insulting.

If that was not your intent, then please accept my apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That was not my intent in this case, though given my general proclivities around here the misinterpretation was not only natural but probably unavoidable.

I've reached the point in my life where, to my shock, I'm occasionally overtaken by nostalgic recall. There is a great deal of the world of my childhood as I experienced it - I've no doubt that for adults and more sophisticated observers it was always a great deal more challenging - that I rather miss.

Entertainment is not part of that, however, because of the remarkable technological innovations over the decades. I don't miss or mourn old Star Trek because I can see it any time I like. I can find many of the truly inventive and often brilliantly weird cartoons of the 1930s and 1940s (which played on TV continually in the 1960s) on Youtube or DVD.

Probably owing to the simple enormity and therefore culturally deforming effect of the Baby Boom generation an awful lot of the music and other entertainment of our day has been deemed "classic" and is as available at the click of a mouse as anything current. There is nothing to defend, because there's no real threat of loss.

On the other hand, the kind of uncomplicated love of automobiles that I and my parents grew up with is downright archaic...as is a certain basic and unexamined (and often misguided) confidence in our values that was embodied in stuff like TOS.

 

[gh4chiefs]

That was not my intent in this case, though given my general proclivities around here the misinterpretation was not only natural but probably unavoidable.

Well then please accept my apologies for "going off." And by all means, I sincerely hope you enjoy the new movie. Lord knows we could use some good entertainment these days.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That was not my intent in this case, though given my general proclivities around here the misinterpretation was not only natural but probably unavoidable.

Well then please accept my apologies for "going off."

Not at all necessary - as I said, I'm a generally difficult and argumentative character.

 

[gh4chiefs]

Well I can be a pretty opinionated person myself, but relative to this discussion about STXI and the Vulcan destruction, I've tried to tone it down, and just lay out the reasons why it bothered me.

And I've tried hard to not "step on anybody's toes" who might feel the opposite of me. At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I don't undertand it, but I respect it.

EDIT TO ADD: And just to hold out hope that I'm not completely stuck in the past and might be able to enjoy the movie, I've been watching Smallville for years now and Lord know that steps all over the traditional Superman mythos.

 

[Borgminister]

That was not my intent in this case, though given my general proclivities around here the misinterpretation was not only natural but probably unavoidable.

Well then please accept my apologies for "going off."

Not at all necessary - as I said, I'm a generally difficult and argumentative character.

Bromance!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I've been watching Smallville for years now and Lord know that steps all over the traditional Superman mythos.

Well in some ways then you're more flexible than I am - although I don't guess my disinterest in Smallville has that much to do with the continuity.

You know, Superman's mythos has taken several long curves and a couple of abrupt left turns during my memory (back into the mid-1950s, thanks to the traditional older-kid's-mom-giving-away-his-comics).

 

[The Super Brando]

In the end, I think Star Trek is going to lose some old fans because of this film, and gain a ton of new ones. I've been expecting all along to hear Trek zealots bellyache, and I'm sure in the coming months and years many of them will disappear from mainstream Trek fandom.

And that's ok with me, because I don't think any franchise can survive for very long if it just tries to maintain the status quo and isn't willing to make any big changes. Some people just get stuck in their ways and go nuts when any change at all is suggested. This is true in all aspects of life, so Trek isn't exempt.

And I don't understand why anyone would automatically assume that Vulcan's destruction is done in a shallow way, especially after reading all of the advanced reviews from Trek fans. Every indication is that it was done in a quality way that has emotional impact important to this new Star Trek universe.

Destroying Vulcan is a ballsy move. It's not the canned Hollywood ending that is so over done. For this reason and others, Star Trek is bold and cutting-edge once again.

 

[Dac]

I hate to open a can of worms...but why is Vulcan so important? Its not as if the Vulcan RACE has been wiped out. They still exist as a species. An endangered species yes, but its not the be all end all of Vulcan society. In the context of the story, Vulcan was a big enough target on the characters to elicit a powerful emotional response, but in other stories set in this universe? What is the significance of the planet Vulcan that im missing out on?