In Praise of M*A*S*H

[John Picard]

Just write in "Pizza oven" where it says "machine gun".

Do you understand any of this, Radar?
Oh, no sir! It slows down the paperwork.

Sir, I need you to initial here, here, and here. Sign this form that says that these are your initials, this form that says you actually signed the other forum, and I need your initials here stating that the forum you signed is the one you initially initialed.

 

[Gojirob]

And for a comedy it had some pretty dramatic moments. Can't remember many quotes but on from early on between Blake and Pierce

"In command school they taught me two things. One in war young men die and two, doctors can't change rule number 1".

Then there was the episode where they fight to keep a fatally injured soldier alive so his kids won't have to be told he died on Christmas day,

And while I don't generally care for religious types, there's something about Father Mulcady, while Catholic was always went out of his way for others - from giving advice and counsel to to performing a Jewish ritual circumcision.

Here's a take on : 'Sometimes You Hear The Bullet', the ep where your quote came from :

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=2832065#post2832065

Interestingly enough, the Padre is often cited as being one of a handful of positive portrayals of religious types on TV. Some of that is biased political accounting on the part of fundie groups, but I've found it to have an accurate basis, though they leap quickly into conspiracy-level talk. I always wondered if these groups did not make Hollywood their target so repeatedly, would they maybe get a fairer shake? It was the heartland came out to handcuff the creative types first, not the other way around.

 

[The]

To say nothing of that Avengers issue Radar was reading - the one where Jan + Hank got married.

Oh, yeah. That was from, what, 1968?

But really, the timeline was all over the place. When Col. Potter arrived (and Frank was still present), it was explicitly stated to be 1952. I believe that in the episode shot from the POV of a wounded soldier, we see him writing a letter dated 1953. But then there was that "year in the life" episode with Potter and Charles that was depicted as covering a span from December 31, 1950 to January 1, 1952. And there were other date references in later years that put it in '51 or so. By that point, they were successful enough that they expected to be around for a while, so they retconned it to an earlier date within the war.

Here's my MASH timeline, warts and all, based on the real Korean War :

September-October 1950 - Henry breaks ground; Trains Radar
November - Departure of Ugly John, SpearChucker and the reffed-but-unseen TV version of Duke Forrest. Hawkeye appointed Chief Surgeon.
December - 1st Christmas
January 1951-November - Forms the bulk of Klinger's escape attempts, phony tries at types of discharge. Bulk of Burns/Houlihan reports and attempts at ousting Henry. 90% of the first 3 seasons eps take place in 1951.
December 1951 - Henry receives his discharge notice, to take effect the next month. 2nd Christmas. Trapper's notice is issued, but is lost in army mail til the next month. Potter and BJ are informed of their assignments.
New Year's, 1952 - Henry makes a toast to the New Year that Potter repeats a year later.
Early January , 1952 - Formal discharge and subsequent death of Lt. Col. Henry Blake. Hawkeye manages to get a pass to Tokyo (From Burns?). While he's gone, Trapper's delayed orders surface, and he is gone by the time Pierce gets back. Enter BJ.
Late January - Frank is relieved of command by Colonel Potter, who it should be noted, gets no reports written about him.
Over the course of 1952, Klinger begins to cross-dress less often, relying on scams for his ticket out.
June - Margaret becomes engaged, ending her affair with Frank.
July 4th - 'You Creamed IT, you NINNY!'
Late July - Hawkeye is reunited with Carlye.
Mid-Late August - Margaret marries Donald Pinobscott. Frank is given leave time, has mental breakdown. Is promoted and sent home.
Early September - Arrival of Charles. Hawkeye and Radar have falling out over his wounding; reconcile. An extended newsreel of the year's earlier Olympics causes one to be held at the 4077th. Charles makes extensive bets on baseball, not truly understanding that the season is mostly decided by that point.
November - The events of 'Comrades In Arms'. By month's end, Margaret has decided to divorce Pinobscott. BJ grows a moustache.
Early December - Margaret's short marriage ends in a final divorce. Depressed before Christmas, Hawkeye invades the peace talks. Charles' sister suffers heartbreak when her engagement is undone by ethnic bigotries.
Late December - All Christmas episodes from S4-S11 fit in here--somehow.
Early January, 1953 - Death of Edna O'Reilly's brother Edward; Radar is discharged.
Mid-January - (speculation) Finding out that Zale helped the other unit in 'Goodbye,Radar' steal their backup generator, Potter kicks him out. His sort-of replacement, Luther Rizzo, is a questionable improvement.
May - A would-be beach outing never reaches the beach. When Hawkeye sees a mother smother her newborn infant to keep it from alerting enemy patrols, the pressure of the war finally cracks Pierce, who spends time away from the 4077th recovering.
July - End of hostilities; Dissolution of 4077th MASH.
Early August - Most former members of the unit arrive home.


I'll concede it has holes. But I choose to stand by it.

That's pretty damn impressive! And while I would easily go with it, I also think it adds more tragedy to the Hawkeye breakdown at the end of the series if this war had lasted for the actual eleven years. But, it works either way.

BTW, didn't they celebrate quite a few Christmas holidays?

Let's face it, there is very vague continuity either way. Hawkeye was sent a sweater his sister made. But, then he's an only child. He told his father to give his mother his love in a letter, but then we find out later she died when he was a child. What's the name of Henry's wife, Lorraine or Mildred? Radar doesn't drink or smoke, and has the innocence of a child.......except for the first season when he does both (drink & smoke cigars) and is a shower tent peeker. So, really, it's all in how you interpret their universe...

 

[The]

Interestingly enough, the Padre is often cited as being one of a handful of positive portrayals of religious types on TV. Some of that is biased political accounting on the part of fundie groups, but I've found it to have an accurate basis, though they leap quickly into conspiracy-level talk. I always wondered if these groups did not make Hollywood their target so repeatedly, would they maybe get a fairer shake? It was the heartland came out to handcuff the creative types first, not the other way around.

Agreed. The further back you go, the more positive the religious figures are portrayed in the medium. But, as time passed and beliefs became more "extreme", so did the portrayal of said figures. Excellent observation...

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

I have a weird association with MASH. I am pretty sure watching the show is the earliest memory I have. I remember being about 2 or 3 sitting on my mother's lap and watching a scene where Hawkeye and Trapper cut up Radar's mattress. I remember being terribly upset about this and crying to my mother. The only glitch with this memory is I have seen every episode a thousand times in re-runs and I have never seen this scene in any of them. Makes me wonder if it was a dream or one of those deleted scenes.

 

[Mysterion]

The TV series has some great moments, but I prefer the movie version of MASH much more.

 

[Gojirob]

Oh, yeah. That was from, what, 1968?

But really, the timeline was all over the place. When Col. Potter arrived (and Frank was still present), it was explicitly stated to be 1952. I believe that in the episode shot from the POV of a wounded soldier, we see him writing a letter dated 1953. But then there was that "year in the life" episode with Potter and Charles that was depicted as covering a span from December 31, 1950 to January 1, 1952. And there were other date references in later years that put it in '51 or so. By that point, they were successful enough that they expected to be around for a while, so they retconned it to an earlier date within the war.

Here's my MASH timeline, warts and all, based on the real Korean War :

September-October 1950 - Henry breaks ground; Trains Radar
November - Departure of Ugly John, SpearChucker and the reffed-but-unseen TV version of Duke Forrest. Hawkeye appointed Chief Surgeon.
December - 1st Christmas
January 1951-November - Forms the bulk of Klinger's escape attempts, phony tries at types of discharge. Bulk of Burns/Houlihan reports and attempts at ousting Henry. 90% of the first 3 seasons eps take place in 1951.
December 1951 - Henry receives his discharge notice, to take effect the next month. 2nd Christmas. Trapper's notice is issued, but is lost in army mail til the next month. Potter and BJ are informed of their assignments.
New Year's, 1952 - Henry makes a toast to the New Year that Potter repeats a year later.
Early January , 1952 - Formal discharge and subsequent death of Lt. Col. Henry Blake. Hawkeye manages to get a pass to Tokyo (From Burns?). While he's gone, Trapper's delayed orders surface, and he is gone by the time Pierce gets back. Enter BJ.
Late January - Frank is relieved of command by Colonel Potter, who it should be noted, gets no reports written about him.
Over the course of 1952, Klinger begins to cross-dress less often, relying on scams for his ticket out.
June - Margaret becomes engaged, ending her affair with Frank.
July 4th - 'You Creamed IT, you NINNY!'
Late July - Hawkeye is reunited with Carlye.
Mid-Late August - Margaret marries Donald Pinobscott. Frank is given leave time, has mental breakdown. Is promoted and sent home.
Early September - Arrival of Charles. Hawkeye and Radar have falling out over his wounding; reconcile. An extended newsreel of the year's earlier Olympics causes one to be held at the 4077th. Charles makes extensive bets on baseball, not truly understanding that the season is mostly decided by that point.
November - The events of 'Comrades In Arms'. By month's end, Margaret has decided to divorce Pinobscott. BJ grows a moustache.
Early December - Margaret's short marriage ends in a final divorce. Depressed before Christmas, Hawkeye invades the peace talks. Charles' sister suffers heartbreak when her engagement is undone by ethnic bigotries.
Late December - All Christmas episodes from S4-S11 fit in here--somehow.
Early January, 1953 - Death of Edna O'Reilly's brother Edward; Radar is discharged.
Mid-January - (speculation) Finding out that Zale helped the other unit in 'Goodbye,Radar' steal their backup generator, Potter kicks him out. His sort-of replacement, Luther Rizzo, is a questionable improvement.
May - A would-be beach outing never reaches the beach. When Hawkeye sees a mother smother her newborn infant to keep it from alerting enemy patrols, the pressure of the war finally cracks Pierce, who spends time away from the 4077th recovering.
July - End of hostilities; Dissolution of 4077th MASH.
Early August - Most former members of the unit arrive home.


I'll concede it has holes. But I choose to stand by it.

That's pretty damn impressive! And while I would easily go with it, I also think it adds more tragedy to the Hawkeye breakdown at the end of the series if this war had lasted for the actual eleven years. But, it works either way.

BTW, didn't they celebrate quite a few Christmas holidays?

Let's face it, there is very vague continuity either way. Hawkeye was sent a sweater his sister made. But, then he's an only child. He told his father to give his mother his love in a letter, but then we find out later she died when he was a child. What's the name of Henry's wife, Lorraine or Mildred? Radar doesn't drink or smoke, and has the innocence of a child.......except for the first season when he does both (drink & smoke cigars) and is a shower tent peeker. So, really, it's all in how you interpret their universe...

When I wrote my stories (still have a few to finish), besides the Xover stuff fitting into the MASH framework, I felt I had to 'knit' continuity in cases like the one you described. The Xmas-es aren't so hard. Remember, only one ep was on Christmas Day itself. One was on the 26th. One ended on the 24th. Still some gaps, but most fans on Alt.Tv.Mash (modded by Larry Gelbart) agree on that one. As for your valid nits, here's what I came up with :

1 - I decided on Lorraine. Mildred was Mrs. Potter, a character in her own right on AfterMASH.

2 - Radar played along with the 'guy thing' early on, and bragged big about his exploits, and just found he'd rather be razzed for the truth then live a lie, and so became the innocent he really was.

3 - Daniel Pierce actually did marry the woman Hawkeye was 'bitter as hell' about, at least early on. The sister was her daughter, devoted to Hawkeye for chasing off some bullies. Some time before Henry died, the stepmother died as well, leaving Hawkeye feeling rotten for not warming to this woman sooner. The sister was claimed by her real father, a stern man who didn't like Dan and disapproved of Hawkeye in the extreme, likely owing to his living out of wedlock with Carlye Breslin. So when Hawkeye said to Radar that Dan was alone to this day, it was at least partially true.

I had some rules for my xovers - no anime or superheroes, though later on that got partially bent in a Multi-AU storyline. Only those shows/series that had 'hidden powers' got included, like Highlander, Forever Knight, and Bewitched. The TV Hulk might qualify, since people viewed him as an urban legend at best.

 

[Christopher]

BTW, didn't they celebrate quite a few Christmas holidays?

Four, I believe.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

I love that episode where Hawkeye ordered takeout from Adam's Ribs in Chicago. He wanted those ribs so badly. Every time I watch it I get the biggest craving for ribs.

..Uh oh

 

[tharpdevenport]

To say nothing of that Avengers issue Radar was reading - the one where Jan + Hank got married.

Oh, yeah. That was from, what, 1968?

But really, the timeline was all over the place. When Col. Potter arrived (and Frank was still present), it was explicitly stated to be 1952. I believe that in the episode shot from the POV of a wounded soldier, we see him writing a letter dated 1953. But then there was that "year in the life" episode with Potter and Charles that was depicted as covering a span from December 31, 1950 to January 1, 1952. And there were other date references in later years that put it in '51 or so. By that point, they were successful enough that they expected to be around for a while, so they retconned it to an earlier date within the war.

Then when Potter took over, the date was announced. There is absolutely NO continuity in the show in regards to the timeline. Perhaps the worse one of any TV series.

 

[The]

I love that episode where Hawkeye ordered takeout from Adam's Ribs in Chicago. He wanted those ribs so badly. Every time I watch it I get the biggest craving for ribs.

..Uh oh

Me too!! I love that episode, but everytime I watch it, I get hungry for BBQ!

 

[TGTheodore]

Mulcahy had some really great moments.

1. When he was frustrated about being passed over for promotion and got angry and took on the black market to get penicillin.

2. And his incredible remorse about reflexively slugging an extremely abusive patient. Really good acting in that episode, especially.

And when Potter first meets him:

POTTER: Catholic, eh?

(MULCAHY indicates the cross around his neck)

POTTER: I see. Can you do a Methodist thing?

MULCAHY: I handle all denominations, sir.

POTTER: Any other Methodists in the outfit?

MULCAHY: (casually) A few.

POTTER: Good. I hate to sing alone.

He really was the spiritual glue that held the unit together. Potter's goodbye to him in the finale still chokes me up.

--Ted

 

[Mr Nighttime]

For real time warp/continuity buffs....pay attention to the model helicopter that Henry Blake has hanging by the door in his office. Particularly in teh first episodes as it gets removed later on.

Korea or Viet Nam?

 

[John Picard]

Oh! The one where Hawkeye and Trapper steel Henry's desk and Henry watches it fly away via the Chopper.

The one where someone's trying to kill Henry, and he's in the latrine when it blows up.

"You OK, Henry?"

BOOM.

 

[Gojirob]

One interesting factoid about the finale : Joss Whedon cites it as a counter-influence on the Buffy finale, saying he did not want it to be unwieldly, as he saw the MASH finale, and so kept it to one hour. Other issues aside, I found it to be an invalid argument because the BTVS actors never had the power and influence over their show that the MASH actors did, especially at the end. If it was overlarge and overlong in spots, it was because all the cast members demanded their own storyline, plus they were setting up a spin-off. Whedon I think still had enough control that the whole thing would have been his call.

 

[John Picard]

One interesting factoid about the finale : Joss Whedon cites it as a counter-influence on the Buffy finale, saying he did not want it to be unwieldly, as he saw the MASH finale, and so kept it to one hour. Other issues aside, I found it to be an invalid argument because the BTVS actors never had the power and influence over their show that the MASH actors did, especially at the end. If it was overlarge and overlong in spots, it was because all the cast members demanded their own storyline, plus they were setting up a spin-off. Whedon I think still had enough control that the whole thing would have been his call.

Well, that's all nice and dandy for Joss Whedon; however, M*A*S*H was basically an American institution. When it was announced that the series was ending, people were literally in shock and denial. Then, there was concern over whether or not the cast/characters would have a proper send-off. IMHO, the writers did a fantastic job, giving each character a closing story.

 

[Mistral]

One interesting factoid about the finale : Joss Whedon cites it as a counter-influence on the Buffy finale, saying he did not want it to be unwieldly, as he saw the MASH finale, and so kept it to one hour. Other issues aside, I found it to be an invalid argument because the BTVS actors never had the power and influence over their show that the MASH actors did, especially at the end. If it was overlarge and overlong in spots, it was because all the cast members demanded their own storyline, plus they were setting up a spin-off. Whedon I think still had enough control that the whole thing would have been his call.

Well, that's all nice and dandy for Joss Whedon; however, M*A*S*H was basically an American institution. When it was announced that the series was ending, people were literally in shock and denial. Then, there was concern over whether or not the cast/characters would have a proper send-off. IMHO, the writers did a fantastic job, giving each character a closing story.

Agreed. It was a big event for those of us alive at the time. My buddy accidentally stabbed himself in the hand around 4 o'clock that day and his dad and I took him to emergency care. As the wait dragged on we let him know that we would be leaving to go watch the finale at 6-and if he wasn't ready we'd come back and pick him up after the show. We weren't kidding.

 

[Gojirob]

Just to be sure I'm understood : I completely disagree with JW, and think he shortchanged his finale based on a faulty premise.

 

[John Picard]

Just to be sure I'm understood : I completely disagree with JW, and think he shortchanged his finale based on a faulty premise.

I understood that from your post. It's just that there are a lot of Joss Whedon Kool Aid drinkers here.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

One interesting factoid about the finale : Joss Whedon cites it as a counter-influence on the Buffy finale, saying he did not want it to be unwieldly, as he saw the MASH finale, and so kept it to one hour. Other issues aside, I found it to be an invalid argument because the BTVS actors never had the power and influence over their show that the MASH actors did, especially at the end. If it was overlarge and overlong in spots, it was because all the cast members demanded their own storyline, plus they were setting up a spin-off. Whedon I think still had enough control that the whole thing would have been his call.

Well, that's all nice and dandy for Joss Whedon; however, M*A*S*H was basically an American institution. When it was announced that the series was ending, people were literally in shock and denial. Then, there was concern over whether or not the cast/characters would have a proper send-off. IMHO, the writers did a fantastic job, giving each character a closing story.

Agreed. It was a big event for those of us alive at the time. My buddy accidentally stabbed himself in the hand around 4 o'clock that day and his dad and I took him to emergency care. As the wait dragged on we let him know that we would be leaving to go watch the finale at 6-and if he wasn't ready we'd come back and pick him up after the show. We weren't kidding.

The night it aired the town I lived in was hit with a blackout. The town went crazy and deluged the cable company with complaints. The station had to re-air the show.