Dollhouse: "A Spy In the House of Love" (1x09)

[Lumen]

I read that more as a fundamental distrust of their clients, but I think the psuedo-boundary makes a lot of sense, too. It's one way they can tell themselves they're being cautious.

I missed that. What do we know about them?

Aside from being told that there are at least twenty of them, I don't know if we know anything about the other dollhouses.

But I mean, are they supposedly operated by Rossum? When were they mentioned and in what context (I've missed a couple of episodes)?

I only recall Echo's reveal to Ballard in "Man on the Street" after the fight, and then a throwaway line by DeWitt to Dominic at the end of that episode to let all the other houses know about the rape incident, and to take precautions against it. I don't think anything about their nature has been revealed beyond what was said in "Man on the Street". I don't know that we should take those references at face value, either.

 

[Ayelbourne]

^Option number two was my point all along.

The way I understood it, your point was that the writers don't know about that stuff.
But I was referring to the people who run the Dollhouse.
That's a difference.

 

[tharpdevenport]

^Option number two was my point all along.

The way I understood it, your point was that the writers don't know about that stuff.
But I was referring to the people who run the Dollhouse.
That's a difference.

Quick thought: the people who run the Dollhouse are fictional characters written by the writers...

 

[Hermiod]

^As I said, writers who should not write about subjects they do not understand.

 

[Ayelbourne]

Quick thought: the people who run the Dollhouse are fictional characters written by the writers...

And the thought, that the writers deliberately wrote the characters that way, never occured to you?
There is a big difference between writing about something that you don't understand and writing about a character who doesn't understand that stuff.

It's not forbidden to write flaws into characters, you know.
Nor is it bad writing.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

I think Hermiod has a good point about this, but I can also take it differently, that Echo's persona in that scene was based on a facile explanation that you might get from a pro dom hooker doing an interview for a documentary. It isn't deep, it isn't accurate in sweeping way that the persona thinks it is, but it is accurate for the personality that she was based on.

Personally, I found the scene gratuitous and obvious. Someone above mentioned that the episode was about "trust" and therefore the scene was pertinent, but most of the episodes have been about trust in various ways (the trust the followers of the cult had for the leader, the trust the father had for the negotiator for his kidnapped daughter etc). We can find trust issues in every episode.

Whoever is setting the parameters for the Dolls, at some point they decide, are we going to rent them out as sex toys? Doing so is stupid, and spending millions on a sex toy is stupid for the clients, we've discussed this before. Renting Sierra back to the creep that pulled strings and "sold" her to the Dollhouse was an abomination. Sierra was certainly being raped, even if the others so far have only been doing things they would normally have done. Pimping out the dolls only makes sense if there's some underlieing plot or manipulation going on that needs it.

I'd have more respect for the show if they'd shown Victor as a leather-master doing some Japanese rope bondage on DeWitt. OK, that's not supposed to be her personality. But this is typical of Hollywood, and of Whedoesque horniness, that you stick a skinny hot actress in leather and hand her a whip and have her tie up some guy (last week) and it's hot. Just like, show two young women kissing and it's hot. But reverse the roles or show two men, and all of a sudden everyone is offended.

They aren't being particularly daring with these sexual scenes, they're being so mainstream and commercial and predictable it isn't funny. If they were pushing boundaries and showing Dominic getting it anally from Victor because he's a closet case and could never admit his needs to anyone who would remember the next day, that would be worth watching.

Otherwise, I'd just as soon prefer they skipped the soft porn.

 

[Hermiod]

^Actually, given DeWitt's personality and the fact that she's the boss makes her exactly the sort of person who might enjoy giving up control.

Unfortunately, Joss is the last person in pretty much the entire universe who would ever have a scene with a woman enjoying being submissive and dominated in a show he runs.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Quick thought: the people who run the Dollhouse are fictional characters written by the writers...

And the thought, that the writers deliberately wrote the characters that way, never occured to you?
There is a big difference between writing about something that you don't understand and writing about a character who doesn't understand that stuff.

It's not forbidden to write flaws into characters, you know.
Nor is it bad writing.

Considering how weak the plotting has been, I seriously doubt that much thought has been put into the show. Like others have pointed out, this wasnt' some mental brain child of Whedon's that he harbored and loved for a while, it's something he created as a vehicle for Dushke for FOX.

 

[Ayelbourne]

Considering how weak the plotting has been, I seriously doubt that much thought has been put into the show. Like others have pointed out, this wasnt' some mental brain child of Whedon's that he harbored and loved for a while, it's something he created as a vehicle for Dushke for FOX.

That's just you making an assumption without having any proven facts.

In fact, the blatant parallels between Rossum and Blue Sun lead me to believe that Whedon has been thinking about some of the underlying concepts ever since Firefly.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, though.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

^Actually, given DeWitt's personality and the fact that she's the boss makes her exactly the sort of person who might enjoy giving up control.

Unfortunately, Joss is the last person in pretty much the entire universe who would ever have a scene with a woman enjoying being submissive and dominated in a show he runs.

Actually, yes, that's why I used that example.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Joss is kinda notorious for not realizing what getting a major wound means (well, he's not alone among TV writers there).

Notorious? Hardly. He is, as you correctly suggest, pretty typical in that regard. Realistic treatment of any kind of violence - let's start with fist fights - would bring most action TV shows and movies to a screeching halt during the recovery of all participants. Insistence upon it would certainly have made the "Lethal Weapon" movies impossible to produce.

Hell, Buffy got run through wioth a sword in the finale, and ws perfectly fine by the last scene.

She's a superhero - never has been one in comics or anywhere else for whom the limits of their powers didn't become remarkably flexible when authors demanded.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Considering how weak the plotting has been, I seriously doubt that much thought has been put into the show. Like others have pointed out, this wasnt' some mental brain child of Whedon's that he harbored and loved for a while, it's something he created as a vehicle for Dushke for FOX.

That's just you making an assumption without having any proven facts.

In fact, the blatant parallels between Rossum and Blue Sun lead me to believe that Whedon has been thinking about some of the underlying concepts ever since Firefly.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, though.

No, it's actually a fact. FOX wanted a show for dushku, Whedon came up with an idea, they let him do it. 2007 he came up with it. From that time, meeting with executives, getting final approval, talkign with FOX on what they want, and having to come up with characters, a series premise, 13 ideas for episodes to be written by other people, and be involved in other aspects of the show's premise, then have to re-write and re-film the pilot, he simply didn't have enough time. That's a reality.


And also, during all that, writing BTVS comics, Angel comics, a second Firefly comic series, do Dr. Horrible, work on "Cabin In the Woods", do countless interviews, and have a personal life. It's just "my opinion".

 

[Ayelbourne]

No, it's actually a fact. FOX wanted a show for dushku, Whedon came up with an idea, they let him do it. 2007 he came up with it. From that time, meeting with executives, getting final approval, talkign with FOX on what they want, and having to come up with characters, a series premise, 13 ideas for episodes to be written by other people, and be involved in other aspects of the show's premise, then have to re-write and re-film the pilot, he simply didn't have enough time. That's a reality.

That's a timespan that applies for a lot of shows. And it doesn't prove anything. Two years is a hell of a lot of time to come up with a premise, a cast and a basic plot. Any writer can do that within a month.
Anything else is done "on the run" during the actual writing process.

Since you haven't been with him the whole time, you can't possibly know how much time and thought Whedon invested on this.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Ad to that list of other projects I believe he was still finishing up "The Astonishing X-Men", and also did a few episodes of the comic books series "Runaways", while also working on his yet to be rejected "Wonder Woman" Script. Whedon may be a talented writer, but he's not a god, and he certain lives by the same 24 hour days we do.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Nah, no excuses here - that's a perfectly adequate time frame for developing and producing a show like this.

Personally, I don't think he's done a bad job at all.

The show is growing on me, though the first couple of episodes I saw were rough going.

It's not a show that needs excuses made for it, but it's a long way from brilliant so far.

Based on what I'm seeing, I'll certainly hang in as long as FOX does.

 

[Plain Simple]

I did like this one a lot. Some interesting insight into DeWitt's character, the plot's moving forward, and a slightly different format for the hour than usual. And most unbelievably of all, Topher's character is growing on me.

I think I'm homing in on (one of the things?) what irks me in Dushku's acting. It's the way she move's her head. It's always exactly the same, accompanied with the same expression. No matter how much she acts like a different person each time, the way she moves her head jerks me out of the story.

 

[Plain Simple]

I wish this show was not about to get canceled its just started to go places.
I think this is the best episode yet.
I take it there another spy who programed November?

I don't think so. Wasn't the programming of November and not cleaning up all evidence of that what started Dominic's downfall in the first place?

I have a feeling there is another spy in the dollhouse, and my feeling has been the doctor, Amy Acker.

I have the same feeling. Don't know why. It's probably Ivy.

 

[Ayelbourne]

Wasn't the programming of November and not cleaning up all evidence of that what started Dominic's downfall in the first place?

Not exactly. It was last weeks events.
Caroline put some bullets in the equipment. At the beginning of this ep, we see Topher repairing the stuff. That's how he found the device.

 

[Technobuilder]

The guy who plays "Victor" is really good at slipping from one character into the next.

Good Actor.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The guy who plays "Victor" is really good at slipping from one character into the next.

Good Actor.

Yeah, I agree.