A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

She's a beaut. I would have loved to have seen that flying around on screen.

The launch of the captain's yacht was hardly epic, it was a small ship that was retconned onto the E-E which detached and flew away. The only reason why that scene was even memorable is because people had been waiting a decade to finally see the thing.

Gods frakking dammit! We could have had nice things.

My sentiments exactly. Imagine the aerowing deploying majestically for the first time, a symbol of hope for the crew's mission successes. It had its own drop hangar bay, which could have made an awesome practical set (although realistically they'd have probably cheaped out on it.) Did I mention they could have re-used the runabout set pieces? They could have even named it the Delta Flyer. But I guess we'll cross that ranting bridge when we come to it...

Sadly, I agree. I honestly don't think they ever bothered to ask Mr. Sternbach or the other members of the production department when addressing this kind of thing. All it takes is a casual glance at Voyager's hull to spot numerous minute details - from the offset spine airlock on the ship's back that uses the TNG cargo-bay-style doors, to a similar egress beside the shuttlebay egress.

I'm not one to normally pay attention to the blueprints, etc. but those photos are really cool. I would have loved to have seen the aeroshuttle in action or watch the bridge detach and manuever around on thruster control.

I'm very glad you enjoyed them!

I do have a few more, too. I didn't want to steal too much of GodBen's thunder but I know that I haven't seen most of the posters who reply to this thread post in the Tech/Art forums so I thought the onlookers might enjoy them. Some of the concept designs for Voyager are fascinating. In particular, Mr. Sternbach's concepts of a basically complete Voyager but without folding nacelles are quite intriguing and graceful. (If you haven't seen the drawing in question, it basically features a more squat version of the nacelle struts found on the 'speedboat' shuttle.)

The design of Voyager is one of my favorites, dramatic considerations aside. I've always been impressed by the remarkable detail and quality of the physical Voyager model. IMO, it may be the finest-quality physical model ever made for 'Star Trek' before the switchover to all-CGI. I'm so jealous of the guy who shelled out the half a million to own it. Then again, having the half-million would be great, too.

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I do have a few more, too. I didn't want to steal too much of GodBen's thunder but I know that I haven't seen most of the posters who reply to this thread post in the Tech/Art forums so I thought the onlookers might enjoy them.

That's understandable but you could always start another thread if you want.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Hmm, not a bad idea. But could I get away with putting it in this forum so everyone would look?

 

[kimc]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Hmm, not a bad idea. But could I get away with putting it in this forum so everyone would look?

Well this forum is for everything Voyager related, imo. If you were to start posting photos of ships from other shows then I could see it moving to the Tech forum.

 

[Mareika]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I love the "Angry Warrior Speech"!!It`s so heartbreaking.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Season 2 Review

The return of the graphs!

A simple to understand graph, once again the five star ratings are given a number between 1 and 10 and that is what is represented by the blue line. The big news here is that green line which represents the average because, as you can see, it is below the average score of 5. The average score for this season is 4.692; slightly below average. This is the feeling that I had while watching the season because a lot of the episodes failed to capture my interest and I had problems with some of the better episodes such as Projections or Alliances.

The red line is a trendline which suggests that my scores were getting higher as the season went by, which fits with my opinion that the first half of the season wasn't as good as the second half. However, it doesn't incline quite as steeply as I thought it was going to.

A bar graph demonstrating how many of each score was awarded, you can see a bell curve forming around 5 with an unusual spike at 3. 11 episodes were voted as being below average, 10 were above average and 5 were average. Threshold was the worst of the season with a score of 0, Meld was the best with a score of 9 and no episode managed to reach 10.


The Braga Factor

Once again I am going to take a look at the episodes written by everybody's favourite punching bag to see what effect his episodes had on the quality of the season.

The 37s: 3/10
Projections: 8/10
Non Sequitur: 3/10
Cold Fire: 3/10
Threshold: 0/10
Deadlock: 5/10

Average: 3.667/10

Yeowch! Last season he managed a score of 5/10, so this is a dreadful drop in quality. This was a terrible year for Braga, particularly Cold Fire which I considered to be a huge waste of potential, and Threshold about which I have no comments. His only good episode this season was Projections which could easily have earned five stars had he not ended it in a way I found clichéd. Here's hoping that next season will see him return to form, according to Memory Alpha season 3 is when his writing partnership with Joe Menosky begins.


What Would GodBen Do?

In an alternate universe, Michael Piller and Jeri Taylor both quit and Rick Berman brings me back from the future to head the writing staff for Voyager's second season. What would it have looked like? (For the purpose of this discussion we shall ignore the four season 1 episodes which were held back.)

I would have kept the arc with the Kazon, but I would have tried to make them seem less like stupid Klingons. We really didn't need all the honour and duty stuff that we were shown in Initiations, and the needs of the plot often made the Kazon act stupidly. Alliances should have been a three episode arc to start the season and it should have ended with the realisation that Starfleet regulations don't apply in the DQ rather than the actual ending which suggested they apply more than ever. The Jonas arc was a good idea, but I absolutely hated how it ended in Investigations.

The story about Tom being insubordinate should have been played for real rather than as a stupid ruse. He should have left the ship about 3/4 of the way through the season in order to join the Talaxian convoy, then he could have come back as a hero at the start of season 3 in order to rescue the stranded crew. It could have provided a cool plot twist and it wouldn't have seemed as telegraphed as the season finale was.

I also would have suggested that Resolutions should have happened over 4 or 5 episodes, seeing Captain Tuvok in command for an extended period could have shaken things up on the show. It would also have been interesting if the episode Meld had taken place while he was in command. I would have also shown Janeway and Chakotay kissing (as in the script) and I would even have shown them waking up next to each other in order to drive home the fact that they actually did it.

I am very upset as to how the Vidiians were used this season, they made three appearances and in two of those they came across as unsympathetic and overly hostile. The episode with Denara Pel was good and I would have loved to have seen more Vidiians acting like that and less acting like Stormtroopers with better aim.


In Summation

The first season of Voyager was better than I remembered it, so I was upset to find that the second season failed to match it. There was a lot of episodes this season which bored me, and I think this season can best be summed up by calling it failed potential. It wasn't rubbish, but it wasn't good either.


Ongoing Counters

Torpedoes: 19/38
Shuttles Lost: 3
Harry Deaths: 2

Braga Average: 4.2

Season 1 Average: 5.867
Season 2 Average: 4.692
Overall Average (weighted for episodes): 5.122

 

[Frazzled]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I am very upset as to how the Vidiians were used this season, they made three appearances and in two of those they came across as unsympathetic and overly hostile. The episode with Denara Pel was good and I would have loved to have seen more Vidiians acting like that and less acting like Stormtroopers with better aim.

Love your ideas GodBen.

I was puzzled by the Vidiians - they were surrounded by a sense of pathos in Phage, yes they stole Neelix's lungs but they were going to die if they didn't, they were stuck with this awful disease. But from Faces onwards they're portrayed as 100% evil (apart from Denara Pel) - that should have continued to be balanced by reminders of their predicament I think.

In Think Tank in season 5 it's mentioned that the phage has been cured .... was it mentioned anywhere else how or what the price was for them using the think tank? it wasn't followed up in that episode, I'd've liked more explanation if they were going to make that reference to them.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Wow. Pretty graph.

And about what I expected... up and down, up and down, and an overall decline from season one.

I really like your suggestions for improving this season - and as with most 'speculative re-imagining' you have closely adhered to the way the season played out, yet by the slightest changes made grand, sweeping, dramatic revisions that just from reading about them make me want to watch the 'revised' episodes.

I particularly like the Kazon angle, Captain Tuvok, and Tom actually leaving to come back for 'Basics, Part II.' Would you have him hear about the Kazon bragging that they stole Voyager as the device to get him to come back?

I can't wait for season three.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I remember season three having some fairly good episodes towards the end, namely Distant Origin, Worst Case Scenario, and the one with Kes travelling back through her life, but on the whole it was more of the same directionless, TNG-lite fare. The show still hadn't found its feet, which was worrying, as Next Gen and DS9 were going from strength to strength by the same time.

It ends well with Scorpion, which I think is probably Voyager's all-round best episode, with a strong cliff-hanger. I can't say the resolution was anything like as successful. Season four was when the show really had to turn it around, but for me, it didn't work, and I lost interest. Even the silver catsuit could only hold the attention of my teenaged self for so long.

That was the year where DS9 did In The Pale Moonlight and Far Beyond The Stars, whereas Voyager went with alien Nazis and a hang-gliding Leonardo da Vinci.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I just wanted to say, on the Delta Flyer, it was built for a specific purpose that none of the other VOY craft would be able to handle. So, they did at least, think about that before giving us a new ship. Plus, it was designed to take more punishment and go more places that any shuttle or runabout.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I just wanted to say, on the Delta Flyer, it was built for a specific purpose that none of the other VOY craft would be able to handle. So, they did at least, think about that before giving us a new ship. Plus, it was designed to take more punishment and go more places that any shuttle or runabout.

Yes, but that whole episode was just a huge plot-device to build them the new ship in the first place. I can't even remember the plot clearly - weren't they trying to recover a probe, or something else they could obviously rebuild much more easily than going to the trouble of designing an entirely new ship?

There was nothing wrong with the Delta Flyer, though it did have the side effect that whenever our heroes took a normal shuttle, you knew they were going to get stranded somewhere.

 

[Praetor]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yes, the Delta Flyer was built to retrieve a probe from a gas giant - but dialog implies that this was more an 'excuse' than anything else, and the crew had wanted to build a bigger and better shuttle for a while now - one that could better handle the challenges of the Delta Quadrant when jazzed up with the magic of Borg tech.

And clearly those 'magical' attributes (and accompanying Borg tech) could have been easily assigned to the previously-established aeroshuttle/aerowing without stretching credibility as far. Indeed, the aeroshuttle - ostensibly designed specifically for optimial flight in atmostpheric environments - seems ideally suited to the probe-retrieval mission. A line in the DF's description in the Starship Spotter book says that B'Elanna was about to go space crazy from rebuilding shuttles... Said book also gives a great deal of into on the Aeroshuttle. *sigh*

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I remember season three having some fairly good episodes towards the end, namely Distant Origin, Worst Case Scenario, and the one with Kes travelling back through her life, but on the whole it was more of the same directionless, TNG-lite fare. The show still hadn't found its feet, which was worrying, as Next Gen and DS9 were going from strength to strength by the same time.

It ends well with Scorpion, which I think is probably Voyager's all-round best episode, with a strong cliff-hanger. I can't say the resolution was anything like as successful. Season four was when the show really had to turn it around, but for me, it didn't work, and I lost interest. Even the silver catsuit could only hold the attention of my teenaged self for so long.

That was the year where DS9 did In The Pale Moonlight and Far Beyond The Stars, whereas Voyager went with alien Nazis and a hang-gliding Leonardo da Vinci.

I liked season 3 a lot and thought it was a really interesting season in that there was no direction and it was just a year of the crew trying to get home and encountering some mishaps along the way. There were no serious threats in that region of space and they were just getting on with it. We also got some seriously quality episodes like the ones you mentioned and their holo beach resort!
I do agree that they needed to find direction quite soon after that though which they didn't but I felt that was OK since Seven was such an amazing new character and seasons 4 & 5 are both so good.

 

[Frazzled]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I liked season 3 a lot and thought it was a really interesting season in that there was no direction and it was just a year of the crew trying to get home and encountering some mishaps along the way. There were no serious threats in that region of space and they were just getting on with it. We also got some seriously quality episodes like the ones you mentioned and their holo beach resort!
I do agree that they needed to find direction quite soon after that though which they didn't but I felt that was OK since Seven was such an amazing new character and seasons 4 & 5 are both so good.

I liked season three too, but unlike you I think a bit of direction afterwards would've been good instead of the endless chopping and changing about and 'oh about time for yet another miraculous Borg escape' that followed. I never liked Seven though she's grown on me a bit second time around. VOY still remains my favourite series but mainly cos I liked the first three so much.

 

[neogothboy74]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I liked 'Resolutions' and 'Basics, Part I' when they aired, but in retrospect the C/J angle annoys me simply because it never went anywhere - so it sort of grates on my nerves now as just one more thing they teased us with but never really delivered on. I think the things that I liked about these 2 episodes at the time was that they felt like they were bringing together story threads from throughout the season and was going to pay them off...

I like Godben's suggestions about the season and his info is interesting. I used to buy any magazine that had reviews of Trek, and one of them had this great thing about what Voyager needed to do to improve and I liked a lot of what they had to say. I should track that magazine down...if I didn't throw it out? Anyways - Godben's comments reminded me of that article.

Early Season 3 did not impress me. "Remember" is good; I rather like that one a lot (though it could have been done on TNG - I liked the characters in this one). But most of the others just annoy me. Don't even get me started on the plot holes in 'Flashback'; it seriously hurts my head.

 

[TedShatner10]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Considering the so-so reviews of many of Voyager's earlier episodes, I've always puzzled what was so bad with S5 & S6 in comparison, even if they had their fair share of dreck (like "The Fight" and "Spirit Folk").

Yet "The Chute" and "Tuvik" are still very good episodes and are comparable to later memorable episodes like "Counterpoint" and "One Small Step".

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I particularly like the Kazon angle, Captain Tuvok, and Tom actually leaving to come back for 'Basics, Part II.' Would you have him hear about the Kazon bragging that they stole Voyager as the device to get him to come back?

Well I like my story arcs, so Basics part 2 would have been expanded over three or four episodes. The way I see it, Tom begins hearing rumours about Voyager attacking innocent vessels and he convinces the Talaxians to investigate. When they catch up with Voyager, Tom finds out that the Kazon have control of it and he is forced to flee because the Talaxian ship isn't powerful enough to take on Voyager. Tom realises that they need to form a powerful fleet to take on Voyager and the other Nistrim ships so he convinces various races including the Talaxians, the Trabe and maybe even the Vidiians to put together enough ships to take on the Nistrim before they destroy the little stability which exists in that region of space.

They retake the ship in an epic battle, the crew is rescued from wherever they are, and Voyager leaves the region which is now a little more united thanks to Tom's efforts. He could either stay behind and try to help the region on the path towards its own Federation, or he could do the "safe" thing and rejoin the crew on the journey towards Earth.

The Voyager-Nistrim incident could have been the event which led to stability in a dangerous region of space, much like the Romulan wars united the various races around Earth. I think that would have been much more fitting for a Star Trek series than having Voyager fly off leaving the problem behind.

That was the year where DS9 did In The Pale Moonlight and Far Beyond The Stars, whereas Voyager went with alien Nazis and a hang-gliding Leonardo da Vinci.

To be fair, that is also the year that Voyager brought us Living Witness and DS9 inflicted Profit and Lace upon millions of innocents.

Early Season 3 did not impress me. "Remember" is good; I rather like that one a lot.

Ironically, I can never remember this episode. Every time it is mentioned I have to go and check Memory Alpha to find out what it was about.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Irony, isn't it. You know, in the same sense that 'Unforgetable' is utterly forgetable.

 

[Gary7]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

On the first season review, I didn't spend much time reading the graphs and details... I got turned off by what appeared to be too much information. However, this time I gave it another chance and I like what you'd done here, Ben. This is an excellent idea. It exposes some interesting perspectives on things, like measuring writer's episode success.

I also like the idea of having Tuvok in charge for several episodes... get a break from Janeway and Chakotay running the show. And of course, a few cuts to their progress living alone on that planet. Who knows... maybe Janeway would befriend that chimp after all, and he'd end up as her pet on board when they finally get picked up. At least for a few seasons, until he wreaks some havoc and they finally decide to leave him behind on the next class M planet.

I think the key you touch on is taking the daring paths that the writers were too afraid to take the first time around.

 

[Jaespol]

Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I liked season 3 a lot and thought it was a really interesting season in that there was no direction and it was just a year of the crew trying to get home and encountering some mishaps along the way. There were no serious threats in that region of space and they were just getting on with it. We also got some seriously quality episodes like the ones you mentioned and their holo beach resort!
I do agree that they needed to find direction quite soon after that though which they didn't but I felt that was OK since Seven was such an amazing new character and seasons 4 & 5 are both so good.

I liked season three too, but unlike you I think a bit of direction afterwards would've been good instead of the endless chopping and changing about and 'oh about time for yet another miraculous Borg escape' that followed. I never liked Seven though she's grown on me a bit second time around. VOY still remains my favourite series but mainly cos I liked the first three so much.

The Borg stories were really botched, I wish we had encountered a really interesting alien thread, the Vidiians were the best Voyager enemy IMO but far too little attention was paid to them. I think Voyager destroyed the Borg and 8472 was really castrated in that episode where they are imitating humans.