A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Given how quickly they constructed the Delta Flyer and how easily they managed to rebuild it in Season 7, it wouldn't strain my disbelief to believe they're capable of building their own shuttles (and there are plenty of other things that DO strain my disbelief to varying degrees elsewhere that I don't need any more help in that department anyway) - I personally wouldn't deduct points for that, but hey, you're the one reviewing, you rate them how you wish.
Given how quickly they constructed the Delta Flyer and how easily they managed to rebuild it in Season 7, it wouldn't strain my disbelief to believe they're capable of building their own shuttles (and there are plenty of other things that DO strain my disbelief to varying degrees elsewhere that I don't need any more help in that department anyway) - I personally wouldn't deduct points for that, but hey, you're the one reviewing, you rate them how you wish.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Basics, Part 1 (***)
Star Trek has one big problem; the first time they attempted a season ending cliffhanger they nailed it so perfectly that every time they tried it since they just weren't able to match it. Every TNG cliffhanger after BOBW resulted in diminished returns, and DS9 chose not to go down the cliffhanger route in favour of twist endings designed to entice you back for the next season. This is Voyager's first season ending cliffhanger, and who better to write it than Michael Piller himself?
What this episode has going for it is a sense of continuity about the events of the second season. Seska's baby is born, Voyager must face the Kazon, Suder is brought into the story and so is a minor Kazon character from Alliances. If there is a problem here it is that this doesn't feel like the wrap-up to a season long arc, this feels like a standard Voyager episode when it really needed to feel epic. There should have been a sense of dread, that this may be Voyager's last stand, that would have helped the ending where the ship is captured by the Kazon to feel less tacked on.
Another problem this episode has is that it feels a lot like set-up. The final act includes shots of Suder in the ship's vents, a native of the planet and the big bad land eel, as well as Seska explaining how Tom could have escaped in the shuttle. It is always good when you set things up to pay off later, but it isn't good when certain aspects of an episode scream that they are set-up. Set-up should be subtle, it shouldn't announce itself.
I admire the idea behind this episode: Voyager risks everything to save a child and they lose, now they must live without technology because they refused to share it. At the end the crew is faced with living on a desolate world while their home leaves without them. But as I said, the execution of these ideas doesn't feel big enough for the premise and that hampers the events as they happen.
Torpedoes! In this episode Janeway says that they don't have torpedoes to waste, so I'm adding that to my argument that they don't have a method of replacing them. Three were fired on screen, Janeway later gave an order to fire more torpedoes (plural) so they fired at least 5 in this episode.
Torpedoes: 19/38
We're half way there.
I'll be posting a season 2 wrap up before I begin on season 3, so get ready for some more graphs!
'The needs of the one...''The needs of the many...'
All it would take is one throwaway line about shuttle production and I would cancel the deductions. BSG did this, in the episode Scar Roslin explains that they are mining an asteroid for metal used to build more Viper fighters, so if Voyager explains that they are forced to build more shuttles I will excuse them.
I wonder about that myself sometimes, I know he used it in the final season so was it just sitting in the shuttle bay all that time? How much room did they have down there to store all these shuttles, Neelix's ship and the Delta Flyer? It wasn't a big ship.
Basics, Part 1 (***)
Star Trek has one big problem; the first time they attempted a season ending cliffhanger they nailed it so perfectly that every time they tried it since they just weren't able to match it. Every TNG cliffhanger after BOBW resulted in diminished returns, and DS9 chose not to go down the cliffhanger route in favour of twist endings designed to entice you back for the next season. This is Voyager's first season ending cliffhanger, and who better to write it than Michael Piller himself?
What this episode has going for it is a sense of continuity about the events of the second season. Seska's baby is born, Voyager must face the Kazon, Suder is brought into the story and so is a minor Kazon character from Alliances. If there is a problem here it is that this doesn't feel like the wrap-up to a season long arc, this feels like a standard Voyager episode when it really needed to feel epic. There should have been a sense of dread, that this may be Voyager's last stand, that would have helped the ending where the ship is captured by the Kazon to feel less tacked on.
Another problem this episode has is that it feels a lot like set-up. The final act includes shots of Suder in the ship's vents, a native of the planet and the big bad land eel, as well as Seska explaining how Tom could have escaped in the shuttle. It is always good when you set things up to pay off later, but it isn't good when certain aspects of an episode scream that they are set-up. Set-up should be subtle, it shouldn't announce itself.
I admire the idea behind this episode: Voyager risks everything to save a child and they lose, now they must live without technology because they refused to share it. At the end the crew is faced with living on a desolate world while their home leaves without them. But as I said, the execution of these ideas doesn't feel big enough for the premise and that hampers the events as they happen.
Torpedoes! In this episode Janeway says that they don't have torpedoes to waste, so I'm adding that to my argument that they don't have a method of replacing them. Three were fired on screen, Janeway later gave an order to fire more torpedoes (plural) so they fired at least 5 in this episode.
Torpedoes: 19/38
We're half way there.
I'll be posting a season 2 wrap up before I begin on season 3, so get ready for some more graphs!
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I already know for a fact that I'd like VOY more if I rewatched it. During the original run I actually really enjoyed the show until Seven was introduced and Kes shown the door. But one of my all time favorite Trek episodes came out of that series in Equinox. I own all of TOS, DS9 and ENT. The next time Amazon has a sale, I can easily see myself buying all of VOY and trying again. Especially if the new Star Trek movie turns out to be disappointing.
I can't see myself buying TNG because I simply can no longer sit thru the average rerun on TV.
I already know for a fact that I'd like VOY more if I rewatched it. During the original run I actually really enjoyed the show until Seven was introduced and Kes shown the door. But one of my all time favorite Trek episodes came out of that series in Equinox. I own all of TOS, DS9 and ENT. The next time Amazon has a sale, I can easily see myself buying all of VOY and trying again. Especially if the new Star Trek movie turns out to be disappointing.
I can't see myself buying TNG because I simply can no longer sit thru the average rerun on TV.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
It isn't logical.
Agreed totally, and there's not a lot I can add to what you had to say about it. The writers may have mentally set themselves up for failure, but nothing ever quite had that same punch. Like you said, this has some good ideas and good continuity from the season, and the premise is really clever, but it ends up feeling flat, which is a shame. Here we have their journey essentially over because the ship - the one thing they need without question to complete their series mission of getting home - has been taken from them. Not only that, but they have been essentially left to die on a dangerous planet. I didn't really get the feeling from the way the crew reacted that they really felt they were stranded, which is somewhat okay, because this is the first part. But then again, shouldn't the ending have built up that dramatic realization more? The one time I got anywhere near close towards feeling that way was when Voyager flew off with the crew on the planet watching.
I really think the set-up for the continuation is to blame for a lot of this. It left me wondering how they would get out of it less to know that Paris was headed off somewhere and Suder was still on the ship with the Doc.
Not great, but not bad.
And I can't wait for the graphs.
'The needs of the one...''The needs of the many...'
It isn't logical.
I agree... and from what I remember, I'm pretty sure you won't be excusing them.
Clearly, the writers often forgot this and thought they were still writing for the D. Sometimes I just wonder how much they questioned Mr. Sternbach on the features he'd designed into the ship, because I know he had it thought out pretty well. I always thought Neelix's ship was going to get some kind of regular useage after 'Caretaker.' Clearly it was a relatively capable ship, and upgraded with Federation technology it would have been more capable. When we finally saw the interior, I thought maybe they were taking their time in showing the exterior because they wanted to develop a really cool exterior design because they were going to use it a lot. As such, apparently not. So they let it take up all that space in the shuttlebay? I'm surprised Janeway didn't order Neelix to sell it or dismantle it for space. Maybe they could beam it into the cargo bay somehow?I wonder about that myself sometimes, I know he used it in the final season so was it just sitting in the shuttle bay all that time? How much room did they have down there to store all these shuttles, Neelix's ship and the Delta Flyer? It wasn't a big ship.
Agreed totally, and there's not a lot I can add to what you had to say about it. The writers may have mentally set themselves up for failure, but nothing ever quite had that same punch. Like you said, this has some good ideas and good continuity from the season, and the premise is really clever, but it ends up feeling flat, which is a shame. Here we have their journey essentially over because the ship - the one thing they need without question to complete their series mission of getting home - has been taken from them. Not only that, but they have been essentially left to die on a dangerous planet. I didn't really get the feeling from the way the crew reacted that they really felt they were stranded, which is somewhat okay, because this is the first part. But then again, shouldn't the ending have built up that dramatic realization more? The one time I got anywhere near close towards feeling that way was when Voyager flew off with the crew on the planet watching.
I really think the set-up for the continuation is to blame for a lot of this. It left me wondering how they would get out of it less to know that Paris was headed off somewhere and Suder was still on the ship with the Doc.
Not great, but not bad.
And I can't wait for the graphs.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
That is a fantastic concept! Why wasn't that used instead of the Delta Flyer, which is a ship I never warmed to?
The more I read about this show the more it seems like the production and visual effects guys should have been writing it.
For seven years I watched Voyager, and for seven years I looked at the underbelly of the saucer and thought I saw a ship stuck on there. I thought it might have been the captain's yacht, but a few years back I learned that this was the aerowing shuttle which the designers put on there in case the writers ever decided to use it.
That is a fantastic concept! Why wasn't that used instead of the Delta Flyer, which is a ship I never warmed to?
The more I read about this show the more it seems like the production and visual effects guys should have been writing it.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
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I've heard more than once that they nixed using the integrated shuttle that was clearly incorporated into Voyager's design because the TNG movie released at the beginning of VOY's run showed Picard using the Enterprise captains yacht for the first time and they didn't want to steal TNG's thunder.
Voyager is, after all, a spin-off. So I guess they decided Voyager's coolness level had to take a back seat to TNG's.
/\
I've heard more than once that they nixed using the integrated shuttle that was clearly incorporated into Voyager's design because the TNG movie released at the beginning of VOY's run showed Picard using the Enterprise captains yacht for the first time and they didn't want to steal TNG's thunder.
Voyager is, after all, a spin-off. So I guess they decided Voyager's coolness level had to take a back seat to TNG's.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
The Captain's Yacht on the Enterprise-E wasn't used until Insurrection, about five years after Voyager began airing - The E wasn't even unveiled until First Contact, which was released in Season Three of Voyager. They'd have had plenty of opportunities to use the Aerowing, but the only use it's EVER seen was in a Voyager comic mini-series during the Marvel run. (Splashdown)
The Captain's Yacht on the Enterprise-E wasn't used until Insurrection, about five years after Voyager began airing - The E wasn't even unveiled until First Contact, which was released in Season Three of Voyager. They'd have had plenty of opportunities to use the Aerowing, but the only use it's EVER seen was in a Voyager comic mini-series during the Marvel run. (Splashdown)
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I suppose you could theorise that it was just a "plug", and the actual ship wasn't due to be installed until Tuesday.
As for the impossibly vast shuttlebay, clearly Voyager was augmented with Gallifreyan technology, and is in fact dimensionally transcendental.
I suppose you could theorise that it was just a "plug", and the actual ship wasn't due to be installed until Tuesday.
As for the impossibly vast shuttlebay, clearly Voyager was augmented with Gallifreyan technology, and is in fact dimensionally transcendental.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Sadly, I agree. I honestly don't think they ever bothered to ask Mr. Sternbach or the other members of the production department when addressing this kind of thing. All it takes is a casual glance at Voyager's hull to spot numerous minute details - from the offset spine airlock on the ship's back that uses the TNG cargo-bay-style doors, to a similar egress beside the shuttlebay egress.
Behold:
Regarding the aeroshuttle, I know that the basic design was roughed out from the start - you could see it in the MSD at the back of the bridge, but the 'final' version wasn't made until late in the show, and then only appeared in the 'Starship Spotter' book and a few other publications.
From the Memory Alpha article on the aeroshuttle:
Also from the article:
Ah, sci-fi: too much fi and not enough sci equals a whole lotta *siiiiigh.*
Sadly, I agree. I honestly don't think they ever bothered to ask Mr. Sternbach or the other members of the production department when addressing this kind of thing. All it takes is a casual glance at Voyager's hull to spot numerous minute details - from the offset spine airlock on the ship's back that uses the TNG cargo-bay-style doors, to a similar egress beside the shuttlebay egress.
Behold:
Regarding the aeroshuttle, I know that the basic design was roughed out from the start - you could see it in the MSD at the back of the bridge, but the 'final' version wasn't made until late in the show, and then only appeared in the 'Starship Spotter' book and a few other publications.
From the Memory Alpha article on the aeroshuttle:
While I was always okay with the Delta Flyer in concept, it would have been better technical continuity to have used the aeroshuttle. Plus, they could have made use of DS9's runabout cockpit set for the aeroshuttle cockpit. *sigh*
Also from the article:
*double sigh*
Ah, sci-fi: too much fi and not enough sci equals a whole lotta *siiiiigh.*
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
"Resolutions" is an OK episode.
However, the plot with Janeway and Chakotay left behind on an alien planet with a strange disease is actually too unrealistic. It doesn't make any sense that they just dropped them off there like garbage and the whole thing with how they got that disease seems like a bad plot and nothing more. What they should have done was to have Janeway and Chakotay stranded on some alien planet because of some other reason.
I also think that Janeway acts a bit wimpy when the storm strikes the planet.
However, the story actually works in some way.
The chemistry between them is great and this episode is the favorite episode for those who wanted Janeway and Chakotay to end up together.
The scenario with Tuvok as captain and the decision he had to make is very good and the high spot of the episode is when Kes persuade Tuvok to contact the Vidiians to find an antidote, something that Kim tried and nearly got court-martialed for.
I'll give it 3 points out of 5
"Basics" is one of my top 5 episodes. The first part of it is brilliant. Here we have a situation where Voyager is actually taken over by enemies and the crew stranded on a hostile, primitive planet. It's an excellent cliffhanger. Not to mention that Culluh and Seska are involved and definitely on top when it comes to scemes and evil behavior.
I remember the first time I watched the episode. I borrowed a video tape from a shop and it took six months before they had bought season 3 so I had to wait six long months before I had the opportunity to watch part 2. That was really six long months!
"Basics" is brilliant. I'll give it 5 points out of 5.
"Resolutions" is an OK episode.
However, the plot with Janeway and Chakotay left behind on an alien planet with a strange disease is actually too unrealistic. It doesn't make any sense that they just dropped them off there like garbage and the whole thing with how they got that disease seems like a bad plot and nothing more. What they should have done was to have Janeway and Chakotay stranded on some alien planet because of some other reason.
I also think that Janeway acts a bit wimpy when the storm strikes the planet.
However, the story actually works in some way.
The chemistry between them is great and this episode is the favorite episode for those who wanted Janeway and Chakotay to end up together.
The scenario with Tuvok as captain and the decision he had to make is very good and the high spot of the episode is when Kes persuade Tuvok to contact the Vidiians to find an antidote, something that Kim tried and nearly got court-martialed for.
I'll give it 3 points out of 5
"Basics" is one of my top 5 episodes. The first part of it is brilliant. Here we have a situation where Voyager is actually taken over by enemies and the crew stranded on a hostile, primitive planet. It's an excellent cliffhanger. Not to mention that Culluh and Seska are involved and definitely on top when it comes to scemes and evil behavior.
I remember the first time I watched the episode. I borrowed a video tape from a shop and it took six months before they had bought season 3 so I had to wait six long months before I had the opportunity to watch part 2. That was really six long months!
"Basics" is brilliant. I'll give it 5 points out of 5.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
"Resolutions."
*gag*
Chakotay is sand painting. Woo hoo! Let's just add *another* Indian custom to his growing repertoire!
And the "Angry Warrior Speech" is one of the most sickly sentimental pieces of drivel I've ever heard uttered on television.
"Resolutions."
*gag*
Chakotay is sand painting. Woo hoo! Let's just add *another* Indian custom to his growing repertoire!
And the "Angry Warrior Speech" is one of the most sickly sentimental pieces of drivel I've ever heard uttered on television.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
GodBen, shouldn't the episodes be rated solely based on their merits, with the deductions of stars being apllied to a series wide rating? I mean taking out one full star from all the episodes after Season 3 (or whenever torpedoes and shuttles "end") because of an issue that "could be solved with a simple line" seems somewhat harsh...
Even the "this could have been done in TNG" issue strikes me as somewhat unfair, however at least is actually based on the episode in question....
I ask this because it somewhat shocks me that an episode like "Living Witness", which I consider a masterpiece would at best get a 3,5 rating under these rules..
Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly critical of Voyager and it's (mis)handling but if an episode is good, it's good..
Jammer for example kinda did that, rating the episodes by themselves, but then criticizing the season/show as a whole in his season reviews..
Though of course, this is *your* review thread!
GodBen, shouldn't the episodes be rated solely based on their merits, with the deductions of stars being apllied to a series wide rating? I mean taking out one full star from all the episodes after Season 3 (or whenever torpedoes and shuttles "end") because of an issue that "could be solved with a simple line" seems somewhat harsh...
Even the "this could have been done in TNG" issue strikes me as somewhat unfair, however at least is actually based on the episode in question....
I ask this because it somewhat shocks me that an episode like "Living Witness", which I consider a masterpiece would at best get a 3,5 rating under these rules..
Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly critical of Voyager and it's (mis)handling but if an episode is good, it's good..
Jammer for example kinda did that, rating the episodes by themselves, but then criticizing the season/show as a whole in his season reviews..
Though of course, this is *your* review thread!
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
Double post..
Double post..
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I'll let GodBen fully explain his reasons, which (surprise to everyone) I happen to agree with, but for my money it's fair to deduct points or point fractions from a specific episode when details detract from the quality of the episode.
(BTW, you double posted.)
I'll let GodBen fully explain his reasons, which (surprise to everyone) I happen to agree with, but for my money it's fair to deduct points or point fractions from a specific episode when details detract from the quality of the episode.
(BTW, you double posted.
)
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I would have loved to have seen that flying around on screen.
The launch of the captain's yacht was hardly epic, it was a small ship that was retconned onto the E-E which detached and flew away. The only reason why that scene was even memorable is because people had been waiting a decade to finally see the thing.
Gods frakking dammit!
We could have had nice things.
At least that is how I see it.
She's a beaut.
I would have loved to have seen that flying around on screen.
The launch of the captain's yacht was hardly epic, it was a small ship that was retconned onto the E-E which detached and flew away. The only reason why that scene was even memorable is because people had been waiting a decade to finally see the thing.
Gods frakking dammit!
We could have had nice things.If you were a guy who hadn't gotten laid in two years then you'd be laying it on pretty thick too.
At some point while writing a script which included a shuttle or torpedoes the writer should have said to themselves "Hmm, didn't we point out that we only had a limited number of these earlier in the series?" Then they should have said "Maybe I'll add in a line explaining where they come from." If not the writers then the script editor should have thought that, or the EP, or the director, or even the actors... someone along the line should have spotted that flaw in the episode and tried to correct it. If they didn't then it is the fault of all the people working on that episode and it is something which damages the reputation of the show, so the blame deserves to be placed on the episode.Praetorian said:
At least that is how I see it.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I was completely underwhelmed by the Mona Lisa myself. With all the glass, etc. it appeared to be the size of a postage stamp. I agree there's art in there that is definately worthy of as much if not more attention.
Perhaps your story is relevant to this thread though. People will often develop pre-conceived ideas about what is good or bad based on what other people like or dislike. So the Mona Lisa becomes worthy of a big fuss, this Trek show is better than that Trek show, etc. This is why I think this thread is a cool idea and would hate to see it undermined by an "unfair" rating system.
I do appreciate the explanation of the "method to your madness" though in how you come up with your ratings. I may not still agree with it but at least I see where it's coming from.
I was completely underwhelmed by the Mona Lisa myself. With all the glass, etc. it appeared to be the size of a postage stamp. I agree there's art in there that is definately worthy of as much if not more attention.
Perhaps your story is relevant to this thread though. People will often develop pre-conceived ideas about what is good or bad based on what other people like or dislike. So the Mona Lisa becomes worthy of a big fuss, this Trek show is better than that Trek show, etc. This is why I think this thread is a cool idea and would hate to see it undermined by an "unfair" rating system.
I do appreciate the explanation of the "method to your madness" though in how you come up with your ratings. I may not still agree with it but at least I see where it's coming from.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager
I'm not one to normally pay attention to the blueprints, etc. but those photos are really cool. I would have loved to have seen the aeroshuttle in action or watch the bridge detach and manuever around on thruster control.
I'm not one to normally pay attention to the blueprints, etc. but those photos are really cool. I would have loved to have seen the aeroshuttle in action or watch the bridge detach and manuever around on thruster control.
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