World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

[Supervisor 194]

I think this comes down to how much you value the accumulated trappings of a fictional universe. I'll be satisfied if the film captures the essence of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I did not cry when TNG came out. That I had no problem with, for it tried to build on TOS and tell some interesting stories in the same universe, with those same characters from TOS having been real, historical figures to the characters of TNG. McCoy, Spock, and Scotty even interacted with this new crew, as it was the same universe, just in the future. In this case, it's not trying to build on TOS, but to redo it in the way the creators want to now. It's technically keeping the original timeline, but for all of the characters moving forward, unlike in TNG, the characters from TOS will NOT be real historical figures to the crew, or anything similar. When I sit and watch this new crew, I know that to them, the characters I remember never existed.

Guess you aren't that familiar with the history of TNG's production. Gene Roddenberry originally wanted no references to the original series -- no mentions of previous Enterprises, characters, no appearances by Vulcans, Klingons or Romulans, no apparent connection with TOS -- ever. Roddenberry even originally thought about just calling the show "Star Trek." It was people like Justman, Gerald, and Fontana who convinced Roddenberry there had to be some familiar elements and fought for their inclusion. Roddenberry didn't give two f*cks about it.

QFFT

An attitude that had more to do with his problems with Paramount than it did with the material.

 

[Ayelbourne]

I know this has been explained before, but to save the trouble of digging for it, what exact event caused the creation of the Alt universe? Thanks.

The destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin by Nero.
In the regular timeline that didn't happen and Kirk actually got to know his father.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

In DS9's case, they did something very right.

Unfortunately it didn't reduce the erosion of viewership.

Which can be blamed on the implosion of the syndication market and the general splintering of the viewership base across the board brought on by the rise of the 2nd generation cable franchises but also satellite TV.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin by Nero.
In the regular timeline that didn't happen and Kirk actually got to know his father.

Do we know for sure how well Kirk knew his father in the original timeline? I don't recall Kirk mentioning the man even once during the whole original series. Heck, it's only now that we even know his name.

 

[Lazerlike42]

In DS9's case, they did something very right.

Unfortunately it didn't reduce the erosion of viewership.

Which can be blamed on the implosion of the syndication market and the general splintering of the viewership base across the board brought on by the rise of the 2nd generation cable franchises but also satellite TV.

Honestly... this might get me into big trouble around here, but we'll see. I think that one of the problems Trek has had in the past decade and a half or so has been some of it's fans attitudes - not all of them, by any means. At some point, lots of folks decided Rick Berman was awful and just decided not to pay attention to anything he was involved in. That doesn't mean he didn't make poor Trek or hurt the franchise. It just means that at a certain point, folks stopped giving stuff he did a chance to see if it actually was any good.

So lots of folks just started not tuning in. In fact, this was most noticable with Enterprise. I've seen an awful lot of folks on boards talk about how they never watched it in the original run, or how they hated it, but now watching re-runs on Sci-Fi they realize that it was actually a pretty good show. Not everyone will share that opinion. The point is just that if you go around the net you'll find a significant number of people who'll right out and say that they were so angry at the time they wouldn't give it a chance, and now years later that they've "cooled off" they can see the show for what it really was and actually enjoy it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I don't think that much of the problem with Enterprise was the result of fans rejecting Berman - hell, most Trek viewers don't even know the names of the producers. People just didn't find Enterprise satisfactory for a variety of reasons.

It's true that there was little good will amongst the hard core for either Berman or Braga in 2001, but ascribing the failure of Enterprise to that is very "inside baseball" thinking.

 

[FarDreaming]

To expect a young acting captain and thos einexperienced officers with him to save a planet from a far, far more advanced force is absolutly ridiculous. From a dramatic point of view (and this would be speculation) losing on such a massive scale would only a) make the force seem more threatening (whats dramatic about an easy win?) and b) give the crew a huge slap in the face, give the eager newbies a reality check and force them to move on boldy.

I'm not quite ready to give them that much leeway. The result is the same: Kirk and the crew failed. They had the resources of an entire starship, if not StarFLEET, at their disposal, and still they failed. That's the only thing that matters in the end.

I would expect Sarek and the rest of the survivors of Vulcan to hold Kirk in very low regard after this. Given that, in ST III Sarek can get quite obviously pissed at Kirk for failing to save *one person* (Spock) how will he react when Kirk allowed - however accidentally - the ENTIRE PLANET VULCAN to be destroyed?

To put it another way: Nero went batshit insane because of the destruction of Romulus, when no one was at fault - it was a purely natural force. Vulcan was *deliberately* destroyed. How would YOU expect the remaining Vulcan population to react? If Nero can fall off the deep end, so can they, right?

Can there be an ST III? Will Sarek still be in a position to have been given the obviously sensitive information he had as the Vulcan Ambassador in Prime that brought him to confront Kirk? In all probability, there is no one surviving that can perform a Fal Tor Pon. Which of course means that Spock would never be united with his Katra, and would not be there to recognize the whale song, and then Earth will be destroyed in STIV.....

 

[Ayelbourne]

The destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin by Nero.
In the regular timeline that didn't happen and Kirk actually got to know his father.

Do we know for sure how well Kirk knew his father in the original timeline? I don't recall Kirk mentioning the man even once during the whole original series. Heck, it's only now that we even know his name.

I read in one of the numerous reviews that it's mentioned in the movie that the regular Kirk saw his father make it to Captain.

 

[Cheebo]

To expect a young acting captain and thos einexperienced officers with him to save a planet from a far, far more advanced force is absolutly ridiculous. From a dramatic point of view (and this would be speculation) losing on such a massive scale would only a) make the force seem more threatening (whats dramatic about an easy win?) and b) give the crew a huge slap in the face, give the eager newbies a reality check and force them to move on boldy.

I'm not quite ready to give them that much leeway. The result is the same: Kirk and the crew failed. They had the resources of an entire starship, if not StarFLEET, at their disposal, and still they failed. That's the only thing that matters in the end.

I would expect Sarek and the rest of the survivors of Vulcan to hold Kirk in very low regard after this. Given that, in ST III Sarek can get quite obviously pissed at Kirk for failing to save *one person* (Spock) how will he react when Kirk allowed - however accidentally - the ENTIRE PLANET VULCAN to be destroyed?

To put it another way: Nero went batshit insane because of the destruction of Romulus, when no one was at fault - it was a purely natural force. Vulcan was *deliberately* destroyed. How would YOU expect the remaining Vulcan population to react? If Nero can fall off the deep end, so can they, right?

Can there be an ST III? Will Sarek still be in a position to have been given the obviously sensitive information he had as the Vulcan Ambassador in Prime that brought him to confront Kirk? In all probability, there is no one surviving that can perform a Fal Tor Pon. Which of course means that Spock would never be united with his Katra, and would not be there to recognize the whale song, and then Earth will be destroyed in STIV.....

Well Spock may never have to die in this altered time line thus freeing him up to figure out the Whale song at his leisure when it happens.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Can there be an ST III? Will Sarek still be in a position to have been given the obviously sensitive information he had as the Vulcan Ambassador in Prime that brought him to confront Kirk? In all probability, there is no one surviving that can perform a Fal Tor Pon. Which of course means that Spock would never be united with his Katra, and would not be there to recognize the whale song, and then Earth will be destroyed in STIV.....

An excellent point.

Spock only survived his own death because he could be reunited with his body. This required a trip to Vulcan. So unless the Vulcan elder who performed the ceremony in ST III happened to be one of the survivors, things are not looking good for Spock or Earth in the new timeline.

 

[shapeshifter]

And that's whats so exciting about it, we cannot predict what will happen.

 

[ralph]

I have some questions:

Does Nero die or disappear?
What is the Spock Prime destiny?
And about the Giacchino music?
Are there others band like Beastie Boys Sabotage?
Will we see Andorians and Telarites?

 

[FlyingLemons]

Can there be an ST III? Will Sarek still be in a position to have been given the obviously sensitive information he had as the Vulcan Ambassador in Prime that brought him to confront Kirk? In all probability, there is no one surviving that can perform a Fal Tor Pon. Which of course means that Spock would never be united with his Katra, and would not be there to recognize the whale song, and then Earth will be destroyed in STIV.....

An excellent point.

Spock only survived his own death because he could be reunited with his body. This required a trip to Vulcan. So unless the Vulcan elder who performed the ceremony in ST III happened to be one of the survivors, things are not looking good for Spock or Earth in the new timeline.

Well, if it does come to that then via a huge coincidence it probably would be the case that he did survive the destruction of Vulcan. However, as that's quite a while after the events of Trek XI, we won't be seeing that onscreen for a while.

And if they do decide to go there again, I hope they could come up with something original and new rather than a straight remake of TWOK/TSFS/TVH...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, if it does come to that then via a huge coincidence it probably would be the case that he did survive the destruction of Vulcan.

She, actually.

However, as that's quite a while after the events of Trek XI, we won't be seeing that onscreen for a while.

And if they do decide to go there again, I hope they could come up with something original and new rather than a straight remake of TWOK/TSFS/TVH...

Khan is still out there, though. They'll have to figure out what to do when they meet him.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I don't think that much of the problem with Enterprise was the result of fans rejecting Berman - hell, most Trek viewers don't even know the names of the producers. People just didn't find Enterprise satisfactory for a variety of reasons.

It's true that there was little good will amongst the hard core for either Berman or Braga in 2001, but ascribing the failure of Enterprise to that is very "inside baseball" thinking.

Which doesn't make it necessarily wrong.

I think it was a combination of the following:

Some people never got the chance to tune in at all since they didn't have a UPN affiliate in their broadcast area.

Some people were turned off by Berman and never tuned in.

Some people tuned in, and saw where Berman was taking the show (same place every other show he oversaw went) and tuned out. Remember, the pilot had 12 million viewers. Hardly an indication of general lack of interest in the product.

The studio kept trying to run UPN like a "big 4" channel, instead of the cable channel/local broadcaster that it really was. They planned their business strategy around that and judged the results by it. They refused to consider logical "co production" possibilities (like partnering with Sci-Fi Channel).

Oh, and in the last 12-18 months of it's life, we cannot discount the looming "sword of damocles" that was Les "I hate this show" Moonives.

Those "inside baseball" factors would have crippled a show that had superb writing and producing. A show whose first 3 seasons could at best be described as "very good" in those areas just wasn't going to keep it's head above water.

"The B's" stepped back from the show in S4, so they could get their ducks in a row for the future (outside of Trek). That opened the door for head writers (the Reeves-Stevenses) and a line producer (Many Coto) who really had a good understanding of Trek and, more importantly, a genuine passion for the material to take the ball and run as fast and as far as they could (which was fast and far indeed).

Had they been brought in just one year earlier, or given one more year, they well could have managed to bring the show to a full 7 year run.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I don't think that much of the problem with Enterprise was the result of fans rejecting Berman - hell, most Trek viewers don't even know the names of the producers. People just didn't find Enterprise satisfactory for a variety of reasons.

It's true that there was little good will amongst the hard core for either Berman or Braga in 2001, but ascribing the failure of Enterprise to that is very "inside baseball" thinking.

I think it's ironic that many of the folks who hated Enterprise are very excited about a film based on the single worst part of Enterprise: all the time travel.

 

[Borgminister]

I don't think that much of the problem with Enterprise was the result of fans rejecting Berman - hell, most Trek viewers don't even know the names of the producers. People just didn't find Enterprise satisfactory for a variety of reasons.

It's true that there was little good will amongst the hard core for either Berman or Braga in 2001, but ascribing the failure of Enterprise to that is very "inside baseball" thinking.

I think it's ironic that many of the folks who hated Enterprise are very excited about a film based on the single worst part of Enterprise: all the time travel.

I thought the temporal cold war aspect had lots of wasted potential, actually.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I think it's ironic that many of the folks who hated Enterprise are very excited about a film based on the single worst part of Enterprise: all the time travel.

It's vanishingly unlikely that this movie is based on Enterprise in any way. The authors have mentioned "Yesterday's Enterprise" as an inspiration and a favorite episode, which you might recall turns upon a Federation history and starship Enterprise altered by accidental time travel.

I thought the temporal cold war aspect had lots of wasted potential, actually.

I didn't. I always shrugged it off as a conceptual misstep that I hoped the producers would get tired of. They rather did, but not soon enough.

 

[Lazerlike42]

To expect a young acting captain and thos einexperienced officers with him to save a planet from a far, far more advanced force is absolutly ridiculous. From a dramatic point of view (and this would be speculation) losing on such a massive scale would only a) make the force seem more threatening (whats dramatic about an easy win?) and b) give the crew a huge slap in the face, give the eager newbies a reality check and force them to move on boldy.

I'm not quite ready to give them that much leeway. The result is the same: Kirk and the crew failed. They had the resources of an entire starship, if not StarFLEET, at their disposal, and still they failed. That's the only thing that matters in the end.

I would expect Sarek and the rest of the survivors of Vulcan to hold Kirk in very low regard after this. Given that, in ST III Sarek can get quite obviously pissed at Kirk for failing to save *one person* (Spock) how will he react when Kirk allowed - however accidentally - the ENTIRE PLANET VULCAN to be destroyed?

To put it another way: Nero went batshit insane because of the destruction of Romulus, when no one was at fault - it was a purely natural force. Vulcan was *deliberately* destroyed. How would YOU expect the remaining Vulcan population to react? If Nero can fall off the deep end, so can they, right?

Can there be an ST III? Will Sarek still be in a position to have been given the obviously sensitive information he had as the Vulcan Ambassador in Prime that brought him to confront Kirk? In all probability, there is no one surviving that can perform a Fal Tor Pon. Which of course means that Spock would never be united with his Katra, and would not be there to recognize the whale song, and then Earth will be destroyed in STIV.....

I think this is a very good point about the Abrams/Orci/Kurtzman approach to the reboot. Certainly, what they've done can change things so Spock does not die (of course it could change it so he dies earlier, but that's beside the point). What the changes in the timeline CANNOT change is that a probe from a distant world is to arrive at earth after the extinction of the humpback whales in our day. The only reason the crew of the Enterprise was able to travel back in time to get the whales is that they were in the perfect circumstances at the perfect time to find out what was going on before getting in range of the probe's power dampening system. Hence, it is highly unlikely that in this new Abramsverse, anyone will be in the position to do that.