MeanJoePhaser
Admiral
Hey, if the senator died under their watch then they weren't very good body guards then, were they?
Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?
- Thread starter Mr. Laser Beam
- Start date
Hey, if the senator died under their watch then they weren't very good body guards then, were they?
That is most likely to be the truth of the matter. The Obsidian Order and its agents never fail... well, except for that one time but no-one wants to talk about that
Indeed. Romulan politics would probably have called for the guards' execution if they had survived. Vreenak's death means they failed, therefore, Romulus would demand that they die as well.
In the 23rd century, the guards would have probably killed themselves, seppuku style. In the 24th century, they would probably have been killed by someone else. Subtle, but noteworthy, difference.
I remember my reaction after watching this episode for the first time: would Garak really be comfortable back on DS9 after having killed Starfleet personnel? Regardless of the circumstances, something like that does not go unnoticed by folks.
I have to assume that Sisko covered Garak's role up, in order to preserve a valuable future ally and save him from any retaliation among Starfleeters. I know they're supposed to be "evolved," but nobody's that evolved. There would be at least the risk of retaliation.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that in his right mind, he will act on those impulses. Garak's violent nature is what made him valuable to Sisko as the guy who can do the dirty work, and gave Sisko a motive to cover for him.
I have to assume that Sisko covered Garak's role up, in order to preserve a valuable future ally and save him from any retaliation among Starfleeters. I know they're supposed to be "evolved," but nobody's that evolved. There would be at least the risk of retaliation.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that in his right mind, he will act on those impulses. Garak's violent nature is what made him valuable to Sisko as the guy who can do the dirty work, and gave Sisko a motive to cover for him.
It's already been mentioned, but involuntary intoxication is an affirmative defense to any crime regardless of the mental element. Heck, in Canada, iirc, it's a defense to crimes of intent. Especially considering that the Empok Nor drug was designed to induce violence, I think it'd be easy enough for most to forgive Garak.
Now, O'Brien probably harbored some ill will, but then again this isn't the first time he's faced mind-control. Garak's situation on Empok Nor is analogous to that of his own wife in The Assignment. Beyond that, we've got the many times he's been around various types and degrees of mind-control already in his professional life: the Conspiracy parasites, Geordi "My VISOR is a Liability" LaForge, the takeover of Data's body for Starfleet-contrary purposes on at least three occasions...
It's likely that a lot of Starfleet personnel have either face mind-control techniques directly or have heard about it, so Garak getting hopped up on crazy gas and going on a killing spree is probably par for the course in this service.
Now, O'Brien probably harbored some ill will, but then again this isn't the first time he's faced mind-control. Garak's situation on Empok Nor is analogous to that of his own wife in The Assignment. Beyond that, we've got the many times he's been around various types and degrees of mind-control already in his professional life: the Conspiracy parasites, Geordi "My VISOR is a Liability" LaForge, the takeover of Data's body for Starfleet-contrary purposes on at least three occasions...
It's likely that a lot of Starfleet personnel have either face mind-control techniques directly or have heard about it, so Garak getting hopped up on crazy gas and going on a killing spree is probably par for the course in this service.
There was a certain Starfleet serial killer on DS9 that probably made the Starfleet officers aboard a lot more uncomfortable, or at least fear for their lives, more than Garak ever did. Garak may be scary, but I wouldn't be constantly worried he was going to randomly cap me when I wasn't looking.
Picturing Both of Vreenak's Body Guards as 21 and 24 is quite amusing.
V21: Dude did you hear that Vreenak got his birthday cake he was all like "It's my Caaaaaake!!!!"
V24: Yeah, he totally like to hold his A's way past what could be considered normal.
Vreenak: Minions!!!!!! Stop Talking about me!!!
This is an odd one for me... I'd only just realised a connection to some real life examples in my profession.
The most recent was a guy who'd killed someone in a nursing home accidently. It's very different case, no experimental drugs involved, but he had mental problems which made him lose control and accidentally kill someone. He wasn't charged as he wasn't under control of his faculties and wasn't able to stop himself.
Another, more extreme case, was a guy who killed his family two years ago. A very pleasant man by all accounts, but over the years he had become heavily brain damaged to the point where he was paranoid and delusional. He killed his wife, child and them - possibly out of remorse, but we'll never know for sure - killed himself the following day.
Ever since then the fandom was split into two camps. One who'd disown him for being an evil man who did an evil thing. However I'm with the side who believes he wasn't an evil man and while he'd done something unforgivable I place the blame for those who were responsable for his health and pushed him into positions that caused the brain damage and used him to the point where he was no longer in control of himself.
I feel there that the fault was with those that caused his medica state. Much like Garak in this episode, the fault lies with the drug that altered him and made him lose control. In every day life he wouldn't go around killing people for sport, he's a very controlled individual. And thats the difference. For me at least...
The most recent was a guy who'd killed someone in a nursing home accidently. It's very different case, no experimental drugs involved, but he had mental problems which made him lose control and accidentally kill someone. He wasn't charged as he wasn't under control of his faculties and wasn't able to stop himself.
Another, more extreme case, was a guy who killed his family two years ago. A very pleasant man by all accounts, but over the years he had become heavily brain damaged to the point where he was paranoid and delusional. He killed his wife, child and them - possibly out of remorse, but we'll never know for sure - killed himself the following day.
Ever since then the fandom was split into two camps. One who'd disown him for being an evil man who did an evil thing. However I'm with the side who believes he wasn't an evil man and while he'd done something unforgivable I place the blame for those who were responsable for his health and pushed him into positions that caused the brain damage and used him to the point where he was no longer in control of himself.
I feel there that the fault was with those that caused his medica state. Much like Garak in this episode, the fault lies with the drug that altered him and made him lose control. In every day life he wouldn't go around killing people for sport, he's a very controlled individual. And thats the difference. For me at least...
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