Kirk is better then Picard
- Thread starter darkshadow0001
- Start date
If you go back and re-watch the episode, Picard had the Borg cube on the ropes. We'll never know if the Enterprise-D could've finished the job because Picard called off the attack to 'discuss options'.
^^ Well, if Kirk had finished off the cube, what then? Would Q have taken them back, or would Kirk have been too "badass" to ask for help? So they start to fly back, only to have another cube (or more) intercept them...
As far as this Kirk vs Picard thing, I like both characters, for different reasons.
As far as this Kirk vs Picard thing, I like both characters, for different reasons.
Well, honestly, Q would have found that Kirk was just as little fun to piss off as Sisko was. Q would have shown up one time to bug Kirk, Kirk would have dealt with it and Q would have be like "shit, you are no fun to provoke at all" and vanished from the show forever.
Still had Kirk encountered the Borg, he would have probably tried harder to blow the crap out of them than Picard did (results? who knows) and there would be no conference while something that dangerous sat there repairing itself. Sure, he would have tried communicating and avoiding their distruction, but in the end, Kirk would have found a way to stop them cold, either through combat or tricking them into entering a black hole or something. Kirk was a believer in justice and not letting attacks going unanswered. I can imagine the Kirk-Spock discussion going like this (right on the bridge, Kirk in his chair, Spock standing beside him):
KIRK: "We've tried communicating, Spock. In fact, we've gone out of our way to stop this without further loss of life. They've ignored us, only talking long enough to order us to stand down. No, Mr. Spock, you can't reason with beings like that and I will not let them threaten millions of the lives. Right now, we are the only ship between these Borg and the Federation and I intend to stop them. Do I make myself clear?"
SPOCK: "Perfectly, sir."
KIRK: "Their hull must have a weak spot. Find it."
Spock returns to his post.
SULU: "Sir, there's something going on."
CHEKOV: "It looks like the sheep it repairing itself, Keptin. Power readings climbing."
KIRK: "Spock..."
SPOCK: "I have it. Coordinates being provided to Mr. Chekov."
KIRK: "Lock phasers and photon torpedos, Mr. Chekov. Full power all banks, continuous fire and frequency rotation until target is destroyed."
CHEKOV: "Aye sir, locking on."
SULU: "Range, sir?"
KIRK: "Close as we have to, Mr. Sulu. Point blank if necessary." (pause) "We'll play it by ear."
SULU (quick nervous glance at Chekov): "Aye, sir."
CHEKOV: "All weapons locked on target, Keptin."
SPOCK: "I am reading a power surge in their forward batteries."
KIRK: "All weapons. . .Fire!"
Well, one thing's for damned sure. No matter how the early Borg encounters might have gone, there never would have been a "Hugh."
Exactly. When they fired their shots, they took huge chunks out of the Borg cube, indicating that at that moment (had they continued firing) they could have destroyed the cube (which Kirk would have done in the first place, in stead of holding endless conferences).
They blew a hole out of it and damaged their life support systems. But likely the Borg wouldn't have been destroyed by the attack, and still adapted during the barrage to counter it. Heck not ceasing the attack likely would've just made them adapt faster when they realized the barrage wouldn't cease. Them being that easily destroyed wouldn't have served Q's reasoning, he'd have made sure they fought a foe they couldn't beat.
"Endless" conferences? Picard held ONE when the attacker was thought defeated, which was perfectly reasonable. Kirk held plenty of conferences as well, just as "endless".
"Endless" conferences? Picard held ONE when the attacker was thought defeated, which was perfectly reasonable. Kirk held plenty of conferences as well, just as "endless".
Of course they would have been destroyed if Picard kept on firing; even the Borg can't adapt that quickly. Since they did already extensive damage by using phasers only, they would have destroyed the cube if they used phasers and photon torpedoes simultaneously.
But using those weapons together, that's an idea Kirk would have thought of...
It's also an idea Picard thought of (where's that rolly-eye emoticon?). Like I said, the plot would've had the ship still not destroyed, since that was part of what Q was doing: showing them an enemy they couldn't beat. Kirk would've gone through the exact same thing as Picard except I'm not sure he would've been able to suck up his pride and ask Q for help (which means he'd have gottene everyone killed).
I don't know that Picard will be relegated away. Everyone seems to know about that "Earl Gray, hot" saying of his.
Except he didn't do it, despite Guinan's warning.
That's the trouble about plots...
Kirk would do anything to save his ship ("nothing, nothing is more important than my ship" -- "Court Martial"), including sucking up his pride.
I can see we'll never going to agree on this one, so let's agree to disagree.
Very true! To tell you the truth, I forgot about that.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Geez, I mentioned this in the third post of the thread.
Geez, I mentioned this in the third post of the thread.
Actually, it was the fourth.
I find it hard to accept that holding up 'keeping your hands clean' while advocating genocide 'just 'cause a civilization doesn't have warp yet' equates to ethics in any way, shape, or form. In a lot of ways, Picard was a unethical monster, the worst product a UN-like Federation, though damn if he didn't keep his hands 'clean'.
(And, yes, that was a product of the times. Political correctness of the 1990s and all.)
trevanian
Rear Admiral
If like me you have a sharp differentiation between ethics and morality, then Picard is probably more moral, Kirk more ethical.
I liken ethics and morality thusly: our legal system is to justice what morality is to ethics: a code diluted down to impotence or worse in order to make it play for the masses.
Kirk might be pained over a decision and haunted by it; Picard might be pained, but then is on to the next, because he is used to buck-passing (and accustomed to thinking that his side is NEARLY always right.)
And that might be a result of the mindset of producers and writers, too. I pitched a story at TNG that had Picard kinda messed up when a kid died in an accident aboardship, that it caused a kind of domino effect of morale because, 'this is the Enterprise, that doesn't happen HERE,' but Jeri Taylor shot it down very fast, saying Picard wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Ron Moore was present and disagreed with her, but she obviously won the day (since I didn't sell them anything.)
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