Thanks, Therin. I know. I'm sure Lynx feels the same way about Kes too.
Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot
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What about the fact that he's at least the human equivalent of 35 and hooks up with Kes who is barely a full grown female? She didn't really become "full grown" until the Eloquim and that was considered premature. Makes me wonder what the writers were thinking.
Eh? The elogium is a fertility window, not a marker of adulthood.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Well, I would have equated it with a human female's menstrual cylce, which indicates that she is now mature enough to mate and have children. Also, Ocampans live only 9 years and I believe Kes was under 2 during Caretaker. That equates to less than 20% of her lifespan.What about the fact that he's at least the human equivalent of 35 and hooks up with Kes who is barely a full grown female? She didn't really become "full grown" until the Eloquim and that was considered premature. Makes me wonder what the writers were thinking.
Eh? The elogium is a fertility window, not a marker of adulthood.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Hmm. I would say that it's a mistake to link fertility with maturity, and mating with reproduction. Obviously, reproduction is a principle motivator of mating, but it serves other purposes as well, such as social bonding. For an Ocampan female, who only goes into heat (so to speak) once, and then only briefly, it would probably be to her advantage to have a partner already lined up instead of trying to make such decisions when she's in heat, and it's unlikely (though possible) that such partnerships are chaste up until that point. It would be interesting to know whether Ocampa males go through something similar, though I don't think that's very likely either: as we can see from Terran species where heat periods are common, males are typically sexually ready at any time, otherwise getting fertility windows to coincide would be problematic indeed. And males being males, I don't see them having no interest in sex until their partner hits the elogium (or why, if sex is as pleasurable to the female as to the male, she in turn would have no inclination towards it until there is a possibility of reproduction).
As to the second point, fertility and maturity, I would say that, if you meant physical maturaity, then bodily, Kes had developed all the requisite secondary sexual characteristics that come with pubescence; breasts, hips, voice, etc. Lien, as an actress, is on the petite side of course, but Kes had a fully adult body in every respect except a reproductive cycle. Not to mention, if we were to equate the elogium and menstruation in terms of human physiological development, it would mean Ocampan females spend most of their lives either prepubescent or postmenopausal, with only a brief transition between the two--not really a fate I would wish on any species. At the psychosocial level, there's even less of a distinction; in the West, of course, female humans become fertile well before they are considered adults, and generally before they are considered suitable for reproduction (heck, a lot of people would even extend that to mating more generally, particularly given how puberty seems to be occuring ever earlier with better health/nutrition). For the Ocampans, I would say it's the reverse: they reach adulthood well before becoming fertile. Of course, cultural factors vary wildly, and aren't even consistent between the genders; it's not uncommon to find, historically and geographically, cultures that consider human girls adults simply once they hit puberty and suitable for reproduction, and marriage/mating (if not earlier), while adult status for men is delayed until they are much older and established in their social group. Then, here again, there's the double standard wherein boys are--informally, at least--considered suitable for mating (though not reproduction) from pretty much the onset of puberty, and early mating often valued as a form of virility, in contrast to the girls, who are supposed to delay, and be societally protected from, the onset of their sex lives.
Without knowing more about Ocampan culture, it would be hard to say whether they would consider Kes adult or not, whether they would see her relationship with Neelix as the perhaps rebellious choice of a headstrong young woman or a form of statutory rape. More importantly to me, however, is what Kes herself thought--that she was well entitled to make her own decisions and control her own life--and that her behaviour and the choices she makes demonstrate judgment and responsibility. She was young, yes, but not immature. There is a proportional age difference with Neelix, and considering the circumstances of their meeting I'm not at all surprised by questions of how much Kes' choice was, in fact, an inexperienced and vulnerable woman latching on to the first male to show genuine care, but I think her later behaviour--that she was committed to, but not uncritical of, Neelix and their relatonship--shows that it was more than a juvenile infatuation.
(EDIT: Eech, this post got long. I just want to make clear that this isn't really meant as a rebuke, but more me thinking out loud about these issues.)
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
You understand incorrectly.
The crew was initially sundered when Nemesis showed Janeway as a deskbound admiral at Command. The splintering occurred in Ms. Golden's post-finale books with its think-tanks and religious retreats and all. As for how Full Circle picks up those pieces... well, I'd hate to spoil it for you...
What about the fact that he's at least the human equivalent of 35 and hooks up with Kes who is barely a full grown female? She didn't really become "full grown" until the Eloquim and that was considered premature. Makes me wonder what the writers were thinking.
Well, the lifespan and procreation of Ocampa was just so ridiculous in the way it was presented, I just tried to ignore all that.
There's actually a rather odd scene with Naomi and Kim which a few people commented on at the time as being slightly disturbing.
I have seen the posts by Kristen Beyer both here and at ST.com. I have a feeling that she did put it all back together again. The problem is that knowing it will end with the ultimate demise of my favorite Captain is heartbreaking for me. So much so, that I'm not sure I can bring myself to read her novel. I just have to wait and see what others have to say about it. Sorry. It's just the way I feel. I'm not trying to be spiteful in anyway.
What about the fact that he's at least the human equivalent of 35 and hooks up with Kes who is barely a full grown female? She didn't really become "full grown" until the Eloquim and that was considered premature. Makes me wonder what the writers were thinking.
Well, the lifespan and procreation of Ocampa was just so ridiculous in the way it was presented, I just tried to ignore all that.
I did too. It was until much later after I had seen Voyager that someone pointed that out to me. I never thought there was any chemistry what so ever between Kes and Neelix, but they were aliens, so I over looked that also.
I agree on the lack of chemistry - honestly, it was more like she was his little sister than his beloved. I wonder...if it was all the makeup that went into the Neelix character (which can cut down on an actor's ability to convey emotion, I think) or if TPTB thought it would be...you know...kind of icky or what? Because it WOULD have been icky, but I cannot tell you exactly why.
(I attempted to post this here...and somehow it ended up on the Trek Limericks thread! Very confusing and somewhat embarassing and pretty darn inexplicable. But I meant to put it here, dang it, so I'm putting it here!)
(I attempted to post this here...and somehow it ended up on the Trek Limericks thread! Very confusing and somewhat embarassing and pretty darn inexplicable. But I meant to put it here, dang it, so I'm putting it here!)
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At the risk of sounding pendantic, Jennifer Lien was 21 and Ethan Phillips was 40 at the start of the series. Doesn't change the fact, of course, that Kes was an innocent leaving home for the first time, and Neelix was a conman/ne'er-do-well, and they never really convinced the audience that their relationship was genuine.
Based on the name of this thread I am going to interject and admit that sadly enough it actually made me order the book. I do consider myself a Janeway fan but can't NOT find about her demise. Peter David is a very fine "Writer of Stuff" and I know he will be respectful to Janeway and the series regardless how he felt about the assignment. I look forward to receiving/reading the book if only to find out WHAT HAPPENED!
Respectful?
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I dunno if I'd say that, honestly.
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I dunno if I'd say that, honestly.
I liked Before Dishonor, mostly, but there were more than a few 'WTF?!' moments there. And I'm sorry, Janeway WAS kinda stupid.
But Mriana, how can you know you've really forgotten? Perhaps it continues to torture you on some subconscious level, eh?
I cannot say that either for certain as I have not read it yet- which is the point - but I do like Peter David and it was not his decision to have her die. As much as I admire Janeway I do plan to reserve judgment until I have read the book.
Well unfortunately I can't post a link to it however if you choose to google j/c corn story who here is going to stop you?
Keep in mind though it's just fun silliness.
When did this happen? She struck me as someone who does what it takes to survive. Death wasnt on the agenda for the likes of Janeway.
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