Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot

[RonG]

And back on topic here for a moment, you know, "dangle a carrot." I recently found out that Homecoming and The Farther Shore were best sellers and the fastest selling Trek books in 2003. Now I don't really follow the Trek market, so it's possible there wasn't any stiff competition in 2003.

Weren't the (mostly great) Lost Era novels released in 2003? How could masterpieces like DRG3's Serpents among the Ruins and KRAD's The Art of the Impossible sell less than Golden's (at best mediocre - and I'm being kind, as to not get into a whole argument about them..) duology??

However, I think this should have been enough to show TPTB that there is a market for the continuation of the Voyager story.

um...hence Full Circle and its sequel?

In spite of this they chose to kill off Captain Janeway in a TNG novel and leave her dead. I just hope this is some kind of publicity stunt and set up for a grand return.

(translation: I hope not)

 

[kimc]

In spite of this they chose to kill off Captain Janeway in a TNG novel and leave her dead. I just hope this is some kind of publicity stunt and set up for a grand return.

(translation: I hope not)

Why the hell should it matter to you? You don't like Janeway then don't read a books she's in. It's that simple.

 

[Thrawn]

In spite of this they chose to kill off Captain Janeway in a TNG novel and leave her dead. I just hope this is some kind of publicity stunt and set up for a grand return.

(translation: I hope not)

Why the hell should it matter to you? You don't like Janeway then don't read a books she's in. It's that simple.

I can't speak for him, but I'm actually fascinated to read what happens after she dies. I find that a much more compelling story. It would annoy me a lot if they set that up just to bring her back; it would cheapen it.

 

[joyofvgr]

And back on topic here for a moment, you know, "dangle a carrot." I recently found out that Homecoming and The Farther Shore were best sellers and the fastest selling Trek books in 2003. Now I don't really follow the Trek market, so it's possible there wasn't any stiff competition in 2003.

Weren't the (mostly great) Lost Era novels released in 2003? How could masterpieces like DRG3's Serpents among the Ruins and KRAD's The Art of the Impossible sell less than Golden's (at best mediocre - and I'm being kind, as to not get into a whole argument about them..) duology??

I don't know. That's what I read and could provide the link if you'd like.

However, I think this should have been enough to show TPTB that there is a market for the continuation of the Voyager story.

um...hence Full Circle and its sequel?

Right, backing up the death of our beloved Captain and splintering the crew from what I understand. Hardly motivation for me to run out and buy the book.

In spite of this they chose to kill off Captain Janeway in a TNG novel and leave her dead. I just hope this is some kind of publicity stunt and set up for a grand return.

(translation: I hope not)

And why would that be? The only reason I can think of is that people are getting tired of the main characters dying and not staying dead, but I don't think people really feel that the novels will be better served without Janeway do they? The polls that have been conducted here show that people like Janeway for the most part.

 

[joyofvgr]

(translation: I hope not)

Why the hell should it matter to you? You don't like Janeway then don't read a books she's in. It's that simple.

I can't speak for him, but I'm actually fascinated to read what happens after she dies. I find that a much more compelling story. It would annoy me a lot if they set that up just to bring her back; it would cheapen it.

That's my point. I don't think people really want Janeway dead, it's that bringing her back would ruin the current story line in their eyes.

 

[Thrawn]

I don't think people really feel that the novels will be better served without Janeway do they? The polls that have been conducted here show that people like Janeway for the most part.

I think the confusion here is that people seem to be conflating "characters I like" with "stories I like". I don't really give a crap about what happens to characters in an absolute sense, as long as the stories are good, and if the best story happens because of killing off my mostest favoritest character, then I'm pretty much ok with that. I can give you a few TV shows and books that have completely blown my mind with similar plot twists. Jericho and Angel come to mind.

The only possible exception I can think of to this rule would be if Calhoun died in New Frontier, but that's mostly because now that Shelby has moved on, Burgoyne would become captain, and I really don't like Burgoyne at all; I feel as though a story about Burgoyne as captain would be a bad one, I'm not interested in watching that character develop in that way. I'd still read it if it happened though, and give it a chance to surprise me; I love PAD enough that there's a solid chance I'd still like it, I think. But aside from that, as long as they felt it was worth it, I'd be all for just about any character in TrekLit biting it. Picard, Troi, Janeway, Reyes, Spock, Trip, or whoever else. As long as the story was worth it.

And also, on the flip side of that, just because my favorite characters are in a book, it doesn't mean I'll like it; the amount of useless crap in the trek line that has happened to star Picard or Data, for example, is fairly staggering. Characters are only as good as the story they're in, and I'd rather the story be the best it can be.

 

[joyofvgr]

Exactly. I think many feel the way you do. It's not really about liking or disliking a character, but about the story line itself.

In my case, I never got the story I was quite expecting. As an avid J/Cer the whole C/7 thing was a huge disappointment. Now Golden came along to break that up and put in a few J/C lines in here and there, so once again my hopes were raised. Then I hear Kristen Breyer, known for writing the heavily J/C Isabo's shirt, will be writing a sequel to Golden's books, only to find out that her story will support the death of Janeway in Peter David's novel. Again another disappointment. I'm sure people can understand my frustration. I also aways enjoyed the interaction amoung the Voyager crew that centered around Janeway, as I noted above. So this is also a possible disappointment along those lines. And I go back to the point that perhaps pocketbooks really doesn't want me or people like me as a customer. Afterall, Trek is Sci fi, not romance. The shame of it is that I think there is a market that they are passing on.

 

[JoeZhang]

I can't speak for him, but I'm actually fascinated to read what happens after she dies.

Generally your corpse starts to rot and people avoid you because of the smell..

oh...

 

[joyofvgr]

I can't speak for him, but I'm actually fascinated to read what happens after she dies.

Generally your corpse starts to rot and people avoid you because of the smell..

oh...

 

[JD]

I don't think people really feel that the novels will be better served without Janeway do they? The polls that have been conducted here show that people like Janeway for the most part.

I think the confusion here is that people seem to be conflating "characters I like" with "stories I like". I don't really give a crap about what happens to characters in an absolute sense, as long as the stories are good, and if the best story happens because of killing off my mostest favoritest character, then I'm pretty much ok with that. I can give you a few TV shows and books that have completely blown my mind with similar plot twists. Jericho and Angel come to mind.

The only possible exception I can think of to this rule would be if Calhoun died in New Frontier, but that's mostly because now that Shelby has moved on, Burgoyne would become captain, and I really don't like Burgoyne at all; I feel as though a story about Burgoyne as captain would be a bad one, I'm not interested in watching that character develop in that way. I'd still read it if it happened though, and give it a chance to surprise me; I love PAD enough that there's a solid chance I'd still like it, I think. But aside from that, as long as they felt it was worth it, I'd be all for just about any character in TrekLit biting it. Picard, Troi, Janeway, Reyes, Spock, Trip, or whoever else. As long as the story was worth it.

And also, on the flip side of that, just because my favorite characters are in a book, it doesn't mean I'll like it; the amount of useless crap in the trek line that has happened to star Picard or Data, for example, is fairly staggering. Characters are only as good as the story they're in, and I'd rather the story be the best it can be.

These are pretty much my feelings as well. For me a good example of this would Charlie's death in the end of Lost's third season. Sure I was pissed that they killed him off, because he was one of my top 5 characters on the show (Hurley, Locke, Kate, Ben), but I stuck with it, and his death helped to build the story for the 4th season, which was IMO the best season of the show after the first. Although TBH it looks like this season my know it down a peg.

 

[joyofvgr]

I've never been a fan of character death. It really bothers me. The first one I can remember was Henry Blake in MASH when I was about 9 or 10 years old. I stopped watching MASH after that and never saw the later seasons until many years later on the reruns. The only exception has been Dumbledore, although I was depressed for days.

 

[DimesDan]

The only exception has been Dumbledore, although I was depressed for days.

When Albus was flung from the Astronomy tower, I did have to put Half Blood Prince down for a few minutes and take in what happened, then I continued on.

 

[joyofvgr]

The only exception has been Dumbledore, although I was depressed for days.

When Albus was flung from the Astronomy tower, I did have to put Half Blood Prince down for a few minutes and take in what happened, then I continued on.

Did you have to go and describe that scene?

 

[DimesDan]

The only exception has been Dumbledore, although I was depressed for days.

When Albus was flung from the Astronomy tower, I did have to put Half Blood Prince down for a few minutes and take in what happened, then I continued on.

Did you have to go and describe that scene?

 

[Marie1]

What? Dumbledore dies?!

 

[donners22]

Personally I don't see Neelix as a weak character. IMO, Harry was much weaker than Neelix, for instance.

I understood Harry - he was a spoilt child, taken out of his comfort zone, uncomfortable in the spotlight and eager to get home.

Neelix actually began with a bit of an edge, yet not only did he lose that, he was written to be incredibly unlikeable. Not only his overbearing manner of treating other characters (especially Tuvok), but his incredible jealousy and attempts to control Kes. That borders on domestic violence - and if anything is going to upset women about Voyager, it should be that.

 

[Mriana]

What? Dumbledore dies?!

mmm Good!

 

[DimesDan]

What? Dumbledore dies?!

Nope, he and Voldermort went off to the nether where there is lots of Pumpkin Juice

 

[Therin of Andor]

In my case, I never got the story I was quite expecting... Again another disappointment. I'm sure people can understand my frustration. Afterall, Trek is Sci fi, not romance. The shame of it is that I think there is a market that they are passing on.

You know, when I saw stills of the aliens to be featured in ST:TMP, I thought it meant that Andorians would be heavily featured. On my third viewing of the movie in the cinema I learned that, if I squinted, I could see two Andorians in the rec deck scene. On the fifth viewing, I found the three ambassadors in the San Francisco scene.

A Starlog article speculated that, instead of a rogue probe, the villain for ST II might be a familiar alien: a Klingon, a Romulan or even a rogue Andorian? Cool! I began imagining a featured Andorian character, perhaps played by John Phillip Law, rampaging all over the big screen, antennae akimbo. And I was stoked.

We ended up with Khan, and an enjoyable film, but not "the story I was quite expecting... Again another disappointment. I'm sure people can understand my frustration," to coin a phrase.

No Andorians in ST III. Two fleeting glimpses in ST IV. An Andorian God image cut from ST V. None in ST VI.

"Again another disappointment. I'm sure people can understand my frustration." You get the idea?

And then came a featured Andorian villain in "New Frontier: Once Burned". Then Andorians galore in TV's "Enterprise". With moving antennae. A recurring villain! And a whole novel set on Andor in "Andor: Paradigm". And a canonical visit to the homeworld in an ENT arc. And a new Andorian sub-species!

We don't always get what we were expecting. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Because, even in the lean Andorian years, I found plenty of ST to enjoy. That doesn't help you at the moment, joyofvgr, but your time may yet come. I never believed all my ST wishes would come true.

 

[joyofvgr]

Personally I don't see Neelix as a weak character. IMO, Harry was much weaker than Neelix, for instance.

I understood Harry - he was a spoilt child, taken out of his comfort zone, uncomfortable in the spotlight and eager to get home.

Neelix actually began with a bit of an edge, yet not only did he lose that, he was written to be incredibly unlikeable. Not only his overbearing manner of treating other characters (especially Tuvok), but his incredible jealousy and attempts to control Kes. That borders on domestic violence - and if anything is going to upset women about Voyager, it should be that.

What about the fact that he's at least the human equivalent of 35 and hooks up with Kes who is barely a full grown female? She didn't really become "full grown" until the Eloquim and that was considered premature. Makes me wonder what the writers were thinking.