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Supernatural 4x14 "Sex and Violence" Discussion spoiler thread
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
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Same here, except I thought the Siren was pretending to be both the Doc *and* the FBI agent once we saw it was the agent.
DA-YUM, Sam. 
Siren or no siren, that was cold. I told you all he was a bad boy. 
I loved the shot of Sam after Dean called and refused to tell him where he was going. The shade of color in his eyes.....yellow. Great shot by the director.
I love the character work they've been doing lately and I adore Sam's subtle slide into hell. The lies. The not talking to the woman he slept with. The cold things he says. Me like.
I liked that the siren was male and that he intuited what Dean really needs more than sex. He needs a brother he can trust, and Sam isn't that brother anymore. The Winchesters still love each other but the trust is eroding.
Siren or no siren, that was cold. I told you all he was a bad boy. I loved the shot of Sam after Dean called and refused to tell him where he was going. The shade of color in his eyes.....yellow. Great shot by the director. I love the character work they've been doing lately and I adore Sam's subtle slide into hell. The lies. The not talking to the woman he slept with. The cold things he says. Me like.
I liked that the siren was male and that he intuited what Dean really needs more than sex. He needs a brother he can trust, and Sam isn't that brother anymore. The Winchesters still love each other but the trust is eroding.
I love how this season (even better then seasons 2 & 3) have used the stand alone monster of the weeks to really mirror the deep emotional center of the shows two characters.
And yeah Sam is in deep trouble and the thing is, his behavior makes perfect sense. If I was Sam, I would see the huge double standard that Dean is judging him by.
If Dean was the one with the demon blood, do you think he would use those powers to save innocents (something he has had a stronger calling to then Sam does)? I do. Certainly their are at least two times when their is no question that he would, When John was possessed by YED (and they did have the option of using mystically lethal force against him, and didn't) and when Sam was possessed by Demon Meg. He has also been perfectly willing to work with a get help from Demons when it suited his needs, so another huge double standard.
Sam knows that Dean is aware that not all supernatural things must act evilly He has seen ghosts help (in two episodes), and Lenore's whole clan refuse to hunt.
Sam also knows that Dean has been around one of YED special kids who used his powers on a daily basis (more then Sam has ever used) and while he acted immorally he wasn't evil (andy).
Sam has also lived with his brother that repeatedly lies to him. From huge major issues to minor more personal ones. And yet Dean has never put that same standard upon himself.
So yeah I certainly can see Sam's point in this.
So far (with what we do know and if Sam is telling us the truth), he has only done good (even if a good chuck of his motivation, is revenge).
And I like that we haven't seen Sam do anything really wrong. Really the worst thing we have seen him do is having sex with Ruby (and was that just a one time or do you think they were doing it all the time) certainly understandable in the frame of mind he was in. In fact really we see him acting more like Dean. We see him hustling, we see him hooking up with women, we see him a little more into hunting.. All things that Dean has been for his whole adult life.
I do wonder what is going to be the final straw though.
Onto Dean, well the siren gave him his true love, and thats his brother. Dean has always had a very strong connection to his loved ones, but his connection to Sam has always been stronger then his to John. Dean does truly want a life that has him and Sam riding in the chevy hunting demons together until they both die. Unlike him and John, I don't think Dean could ever bare the idea of Sam even going on his own hunt. Yet as much as he loves his brother, he does know that they are two different people and the siren was able to basically feed into his need of this perfect brother. I am glad they didn't use a female (something that actually surprised me).
On their confrontation, I felt a little short changed, as they both have so many issues that you really would need a lot more time to really get everything out in the open (well of course beating the living hell out of each other). THough I do wonder about Sam's points. Has Dean been soft peddling on the fight? I have to assume that Dean has been either leading him away from possible contact with demons or he just hasn't been actively seeking them out (like Sam was doing before Dean came back).
And yeah Sam is in deep trouble and the thing is, his behavior makes perfect sense. If I was Sam, I would see the huge double standard that Dean is judging him by.
If Dean was the one with the demon blood, do you think he would use those powers to save innocents (something he has had a stronger calling to then Sam does)? I do. Certainly their are at least two times when their is no question that he would, When John was possessed by YED (and they did have the option of using mystically lethal force against him, and didn't) and when Sam was possessed by Demon Meg. He has also been perfectly willing to work with a get help from Demons when it suited his needs, so another huge double standard.
Sam knows that Dean is aware that not all supernatural things must act evilly He has seen ghosts help (in two episodes), and Lenore's whole clan refuse to hunt.
Sam also knows that Dean has been around one of YED special kids who used his powers on a daily basis (more then Sam has ever used) and while he acted immorally he wasn't evil (andy).
Sam has also lived with his brother that repeatedly lies to him. From huge major issues to minor more personal ones. And yet Dean has never put that same standard upon himself.
So yeah I certainly can see Sam's point in this.
So far (with what we do know and if Sam is telling us the truth), he has only done good (even if a good chuck of his motivation, is revenge).
And I like that we haven't seen Sam do anything really wrong. Really the worst thing we have seen him do is having sex with Ruby (and was that just a one time or do you think they were doing it all the time) certainly understandable in the frame of mind he was in. In fact really we see him acting more like Dean. We see him hustling, we see him hooking up with women, we see him a little more into hunting.. All things that Dean has been for his whole adult life.
I do wonder what is going to be the final straw though.
Onto Dean, well the siren gave him his true love, and thats his brother. Dean has always had a very strong connection to his loved ones, but his connection to Sam has always been stronger then his to John. Dean does truly want a life that has him and Sam riding in the chevy hunting demons together until they both die. Unlike him and John, I don't think Dean could ever bare the idea of Sam even going on his own hunt. Yet as much as he loves his brother, he does know that they are two different people and the siren was able to basically feed into his need of this perfect brother. I am glad they didn't use a female (something that actually surprised me).
On their confrontation, I felt a little short changed, as they both have so many issues that you really would need a lot more time to really get everything out in the open (well of course beating the living hell out of each other). THough I do wonder about Sam's points. Has Dean been soft peddling on the fight? I have to assume that Dean has been either leading him away from possible contact with demons or he just hasn't been actively seeking them out (like Sam was doing before Dean came back).
What do you mean "what twist"? The Siren turning out to be the male FBI agent and not the female doctor was unexpected. I did figure that the Siren would go after Dean first but I wasnt expecting it to appear as a guy for him.
Sirens aren't supposed to be male. In the lore they're always female. That's why Dean and Sam didn't consider the possibility.
WHile its true that Dean is always amore inclined to be the one to jump to lethal force, he more then Sam sees his calling in not only hunting but saving innocents.
Previously all the times Dean has used lethal force is when they realistically haven't had another option. The only exception was Gordon (going back to season two when he is trying to kill Sam). Dean absolutely was going to kill him. But of course that was also because he was trying to kill the single most important thing in Dean's life. Give Dean any other way (and it not being someone who is gunning for Sam) and he would take it.
What do you mean "what twist"? The Siren turning out to be the male FBI agent and not the female doctor was unexpected. I did figure that the Siren would go after Dean first but I wasnt expecting it to appear as a guy for him.
I knew right away... during the phone call. no FBI agent worth their salt would be taken in by that.
Dude, IT'S A TV SHOW!
What do you mean "what twist"? The Siren turning out to be the male FBI agent and not the female doctor was unexpected. I did figure that the Siren would go after Dean first but I wasnt expecting it to appear as a guy for him.
I knew right away... during the phone call. no FBI agent worth their salt would be taken in by that.
What do you mean "what twist"? The Siren turning out to be the male FBI agent and not the female doctor was unexpected. I did figure that the Siren would go after Dean first but I wasnt expecting it to appear as a guy for him.
I knew right away... during the phone call. no FBI agent worth their salt would be taken in by that.
That to me wasn't the shock. The shock was that he didn't chance his gender to appeal to Dean. Even though I certainly understand that while sex is important to Dean, it has never been his primary love. I still expected the show to go the easy way.
Gotta disagree with you here. Heck, that is one of the RATHER LARGE bones of contention that Sam brings up about using his powers. The host actually has a very good chance at survival. In Dean's world the host is expendable to save OTHER innocents. He doesn't place value on the hosts lives like Sam does. They are mere collateral damage of the war and such is life to him.
Sex is nothing more than a distraction in a pressure packed life for Dean. Sure he likes it, but it's just sex. I liked that the siren keyed in on what Dean really craves, the love of his family.
yep, and his need for control.
Dude, IT'S A TV SHOW!What do you mean "what twist"? The Siren turning out to be the male FBI agent and not the female doctor was unexpected. I did figure that the Siren would go after Dean first but I wasnt expecting it to appear as a guy for him.
I knew right away... during the phone call. no FBI agent worth their salt would be taken in by that.
uh huh. yeah, right.
While Dean did say that in his confrontation with Sam, it doesn't fit with what his actions have been. In fact it plays more to his fear about what Sam could become, then anything else.
Lets look at them. Dean has killed several or tried to kill demons going back to the 1st season.
1. YED kid attacking Sam in Devil's Trap
2. YED All Hell Breaks Loose II(there is a full season where they don't kill any demons because they don't have the means).
3. Ruby in Malleus Maleficarum
4. Ruby's former boss Malleus Maleficarum
5. One or more Demons in No Rest for the Wicked
6. YED In the Beginning (in the past).
7. Ruby in Metamorphosis
8. Allistar in I know what you did last summer.
I think that is all. In all of them he had either no other means of harming them or he let Sam try and use his psychic abilities to stop the demon.
On Ruby he has tried to kill twice, but I think in both times it was more for her influence on Sam then any "evil" she had done.
Certainly when she was trapped in a Devil's trap he let her live.
But he has encouraged non lethal force on a several occasions. One trapped in a devi's trap, doesn't use lethal force, female in Sin City tells Sam to not shoot her (he does). Has let several demons walk free instead of stopping them (either because he choose not to like in Crossroad Demon) and several in the dinner in Lazarus Rising (when they did have the knife. In Jus in Bello Dean is unwilling to let a women volunteer her life to save to kill the demons (including Ruby).ability to stop demons he tried to kill them pretty much every time (the exception is Ruby and one Demon caught in a devil's Trap).
Absolutely Dean will kill when he sees that has his last option (and he will come to that conclusion typically faster then Sam). But when given an option, Dean typically will not go for the kill (with the exception of something he sees as a real threat down the road to Sam.
If it wasn't for Castiel's warning (and meeting YED and hearing that his plans didn't end with raising a demon army), tehn I don't think Dean would have the same problem he currently has. SUre he wouldn't like it (he doesn't typically like anything supernatural). But he would be for Sam using it.
And Sam knows this about him, and I am sure he sees it as a double standard.
And lets face it, clearly in the Halloween episode as much as in tore Dean apart to see Sam using his abilitites, Dean understood that he had to.
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