Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Kirsten Beyer]

Hello friends.

After spending Saturday at Disneyland with my godchildren, I came home with the worst case of food poisoning I've have in fifteen years. As a result, most of these threads were written long before I could see straight, let alone add anything to the discussion.

I'd like to express my thanks, particularly to Thrawn, but also to a number of other posters, who through their thoughtful and spirited defense of the creative process have made me feel that the thousands of hours I spent over the last three years crafting Full Circle and Unworthy were not an utter waste of time and energy. (It might or might not interest you to know that Joss Whedon is, in fact, one of my favorite storytellers and one I often look to in times of literary need. Getting to write a Buffy novel before that book series ended was really a treat.)

I'd also like to note that my fellow authors...Dayton, Keith, Terri, and Bill...are made of awesome.

See, the first time we had this discussion, many months ago, I spent a great deal of time and energy explaining in all of the detail I am allowed until these novels are released, what I could of some of my thinking on this topic. I tried to communicate my passion for Janeway, for the series, for the novels, and the bright future I see for Voyager, despite what I agree have been some uneven years. I also tried to assure those of you who are worried that this is simply the worst choice ever, that there is still reason to take heart - at least until Full Circle comes out and you have a chance to read it or read enough spoilers about it to either confirm or calm your worst fears.

I was kind of shocked to learn that those words could be reduced to simply trying to sell books. (I think the exact phrase was "I think Beyer wants people to buy her books." or something along those lines.) But I suppose the good news is, I've finally realized that in addition to being not a Voyager fan, not a feminist, not comfortable with women in positions of leadership, an idiot, a malicious person who makes creative decisions on a whim and for no appropriate reasons, I am also apparently the most shallow person ever.

Did I miss anyone?

Oh, yeah...apparently I'm also too stupid to realize that once you kill Janeway...there are no other Voyager stories to tell because once Chakotay gets done pining over her loss, all we have to explore is Harry Kim and Klingon miracle babies. God I wish someone had explained that to me three years ago. I can't tell me how much time you would have saved me.

If I sound less gracious than usual, it might be because despite the efforts of many here to point out the thoughtless and insensitive nature of many comments in this and related threads of late, people still persist in skewering me and those I work with for choice they disagree with.

Fine. Disagree. I understand. I feel your pain. Though you'll never know it because you'll never ever read another Voyager book, I've done what I can to mitigate it. Repeat loudly and often, particularly on the internet, that you are done being ignored and that those currently tasked with carrying Trek forward don't understand what the fans want.

There's nothing I can say or do to help you. I wish you great happiness in your other literary pursuits. Write what you like to read. Buy only those stories you are certain will never offend your sensibilities in any way. That is your right and I would take to the streets with a blowtorch if necessary to defend it.

But I'm not engaging further on this topic. Nothing constructive can come of it until the novels are released. For those who choose to read them, I'm truly looking forward to your thoughts. For those who don't...peace and long life.

Kirsten Beyer

 

[MilitantJaneway]

As I am too new to send a PM, I just want to say to you Kristen, I still intend to get your two new books. I am though sorely disappointed that they chose to kill Janeway because I had such hope about the direction of the series when I heard that you were taking over from CG. I like your work and would like to have seen where you could have taken Voyager and Janeway.

 

[Octavia]

Oh, yeah...apparently I'm also too stupid to realize that once you kill Janeway...there are no other Voyager stories to tell because once Chakotay gets done pining over her loss, all we have to explore is Harry Kim and Klingon miracle babies. God I wish someone had explained that to me three years ago. I can't tell me how much time you would have saved me.

I'm glad you're feeling better. Food poisoning sucks.

Yes, I exaggerated, I hold my hand up to that. But for years now, both on the show and in the books, the vast majority of Voyager stories have been substandard in comparison to other SF out there. I'm sorry if it pains you to hear it, but that is very solidly my opinion, and I think it's an objective one.

(The best SF story I read last year was Genesis by Bernard Beckett. It's been years since I read a book in one sitting and then immediately went to read it all again - in the same sitting. I've never done that with Trek. In past years, with Voyager, it's been a struggle to even finish them.)

I love Trek. I don't want to not enjoy the stuff you work hard producing, but it pisses me off to read and watch the best of contemporary SF and know that Voyager is consistently falling short.

Writers and editors earn trust. They don't get it handed to them on a silver platter. Years of wasteful decisions has left me with little confidence that there will be a sudden miracle turnaround. I'd like to believe it, but past performance doesn't support it. If the Voyager relaunch can be so full of wonderful stories, why haven't we had them?

 

[Dayton Ward]

So I think all of this is still a valid discussion ESPECIALLY considering the last two lines I quoted there. No invalidation or decanonization of anything.

Well, to be fair, he goes out of his way to mention the safety of DVDs, but mentions nothing about books.

So I THINK WE KNOW WHAT HE REALLY MEANS!!!!!!

 

[Johnhead99]

Hello friends.

After spending Saturday at Disneyland with my godchildren, I came home with the worst case of food poisoning I've have in fifteen years. As a result, most of these threads were written long before I could see straight, let alone add anything to the discussion.

I'd like to express my thanks, particularly to Thrawn, but also to a number of other posters, who through their thoughtful and spirited defense of the creative process have made me feel that the thousands of hours I spent over the last three years crafting Full Circle and Unworthy were not an utter waste of time and energy. (It might or might not interest you to know that Joss Whedon is, in fact, one of my favorite storytellers and one I often look to in times of literary need. Getting to write a Buffy novel before that book series ended was really a treat.)

I'd also like to note that my fellow authors...Dayton, Keith, Terri, and Bill...are made of awesome.

See, the first time we had this discussion, many months ago, I spent a great deal of time and energy explaining in all of the detail I am allowed until these novels are released, what I could of some of my thinking on this topic. I tried to communicate my passion for Janeway, for the series, for the novels, and the bright future I see for Voyager, despite what I agree have been some uneven years. I also tried to assure those of you who are worried that this is simply the worst choice ever, that there is still reason to take heart - at least until Full Circle comes out and you have a chance to read it or read enough spoilers about it to either confirm or calm your worst fears.

I was kind of shocked to learn that those words could be reduced to simply trying to sell books. (I think the exact phrase was "I think Beyer wants people to buy her books." or something along those lines.) But I suppose the good news is, I've finally realized that in addition to being not a Voyager fan, not a feminist, not comfortable with women in positions of leadership, an idiot, a malicious person who makes creative decisions on a whim and for no appropriate reasons, I am also apparently the most shallow person ever.

Did I miss anyone?

Oh, yeah...apparently I'm also too stupid to realize that once you kill Janeway...there are no other Voyager stories to tell because once Chakotay gets done pining over her loss, all we have to explore is Harry Kim and Klingon miracle babies. God I wish someone had explained that to me three years ago. I can't tell me how much time you would have saved me.

If I sound less gracious than usual, it might be because despite the efforts of many here to point out the thoughtless and insensitive nature of many comments in this and related threads of late, people still persist in skewering me and those I work with for choice they disagree with.

Fine. Disagree. I understand. I feel your pain. Though you'll never know it because you'll never ever read another Voyager book, I've done what I can to mitigate it. Repeat loudly and often, particularly on the internet, that you are done being ignored and that those currently tasked with carrying Trek forward don't understand what the fans want.

There's nothing I can say or do to help you. I wish you great happiness in your other literary pursuits. Write what you like to read. Buy only those stories you are certain will never offend your sensibilities in any way. That is your right and I would take to the streets with a blowtorch if necessary to defend it.

But I'm not engaging further on this topic. Nothing constructive can come of it until the novels are released. For those who choose to read them, I'm truly looking forward to your thoughts. For those who don't...peace and long life.

Kirsten Beyer

Excellent post. These threads made me so tired by the time I got to the end, I had nothing left in me. At the end, I kept coming to the same conclusion which was there is no possible way to please everyone.

The authors have been doing a fantastic job with things. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt here. If you don't want to read them, fine.

 

[Brit]

The authors have been doing a fantastic job with things. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt here. If you don't want to read them, fine.

Not fine, Trek belongs to us just as much as it belongs to anyone. All we are asking for is a living Janeway, we don't want to be patted on the head and told "now, now it's going to be all right, just trust me." Why should we trust you, you let her die in the first place.

Brit

 

[shanejayell]

Not fine, Trek belongs to us just as much as it belongs to anyone. All we are asking for is a living Janeway, we don't want to be patted on the head and told "now, now it's going to be all right, just trust me." Why should we trust you, you let her die in the first place.

Brit

Uhm, Trek 'belongs' to the company. You CAN vote with your pocketbook by not buying Voyager and making it clear why, but that's about it....

 

[Johnhead99]

The authors have been doing a fantastic job with things. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt here. If you don't want to read them, fine.

Not fine, Trek belongs to us just as much as it belongs to anyone. All we are asking for is a living Janeway, we don't want to be patted on the head and told "now, now it's going to be all right, just trust me." Why should we trust you, you let her die in the first place.

Brit

I really didn't want to take the bait on this...but seriously, I had no control over the future of Janeway. Trust me. Kirsten will tell the story the best she can with what she has been given. It's going to be a great story. Alot of people care about Star Trek alot here, not just you. These authors spend a lot of time creating a story that they feel is worth telling. Do they always write them with the fan in mind? No. Because they don't always know what it going to please the fan. The best they can do is write something they can say they are proud of and something they feel is worthwhile.

In terms of leisure, reading star trek novels is what I do. And in regards to that, my greatest fear is when there is nothing left to read. Currently, my wallet is open to the writers, creators, and developers of Star Trek as I will always be a fan.

It's ok to voice your opinion. Even I am a critic at times. But real people put real work into these things; and while you and I may disagree with a decision, a book, a character, whatever it may be that the author did or didn't do; in the end, it isn't our decision to make.

Lets see what the next two Voyager novels look like before this continues any further. Please.

 

[Johnhead99]

As I am too new to send a PM, I just want to say to you Kristen, I still intend to get your two new books. I am though sorely disappointed that they chose to kill Janeway because I had such hope about the direction of the series when I heard that you were taking over from CG. I like your work and would like to have seen where you could have taken Voyager and Janeway.

On a complete side note, I just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with CG. She is a good person and has wrote a few pretty good Trek novels in her day. Maybe you didn't mean it how I read it, and if that is the case, ignore my post.

 

[MilitantJaneway]

As I am too new to send a PM, I just want to say to you Kristen, I still intend to get your two new books. I am though sorely disappointed that they chose to kill Janeway because I had such hope about the direction of the series when I heard that you were taking over from CG. I like your work and would like to have seen where you could have taken Voyager and Janeway.

On a complete side note, I just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with CG. She is a good person and has wrote a few pretty good Trek novels in her day. Maybe you didn't mean it how I read it, and if that is the case, ignore my post.

Will do because you did read it wrong-I never did say that there was anything wrong with her-she stopped writing and I was happy that KB took it over because I like her writing style alot!

 

[Octavia]

The authors have been doing a fantastic job with things.

In your opinion. Not in mine, or some others. That's fine, of course, we're all going to have our own opinions of how things are going.

Caveat: am only referring to the Voyager relaunch here - haven't read any other Trek in years.

Lets give them the benefit of the doubt here. If you don't want to read them, fine.

This directly follows on from your first comment. If you genuinely think that the authors have been doing a fine job, then of course you'll give them the benefit of the doubt, because, in your opinion, they've earned it.

But when you don't think they've done a good job, saying "wait until you read the next book!" has ceased to mean anything at all. Particularly if you've heard it before, about previous books that didn't live up to the hype. It's that definition of insanity thing: when you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

John, this is not to say, please note, that your enjoyment is less than mine, or vice versa. Hell, I work in a library! Anything that gets people reading has value in my eyes, heh. If you're enjoying the stories and the style of writing that Trek is putting out now, more power to you. But not everyone is, and those that aren't aren't buying. My argument is that they're not the only stories and styles out there, and if Trek were to branch out (not the whole range, but in parts) then they might increase the range of people willing to buy them.

We're in a global recession at the moment. Doesn't it make sense to expand TrekLit's market appeal as much as possible?

 

[shanejayell]

Well, if you want a Voyager romance so badly, why not write it yourself as a original SF novel?

Do a book on a starship lost in space and the torrid romance between the stoic but caring captain and her first officer. Just don't call them Katherine and Chakotay.

 

[Octavia]

In terms of leisure, reading star trek novels is what I do. And in regards to that, my greatest fear is when there is nothing left to read. Currently, my wallet is open to the writers, creators, and developers of Star Trek as I will always be a fan.

It's ok to voice your opinion. Even I am a critic at times. But real people put real work into these things; and while you and I may disagree with a decision, a book, a character, whatever it may be that the author did or didn't do; in the end, it isn't our decision to make.

Sorry about replying twice, I think I fucked up the multiple quote thingy.

Believe it or not, I understand where you're coming from, because I was like that once too. I read everything Trek I could get my hands on, in preference to nearly every other type of SF. I shudder to think how much money that franchise has made off me over the years!

Like you, my wallet was always open.

That's no longer the case. Trek was my adolescent jumping board into SF as a whole, and over the past few years, I decided to try and put more effort into the genre. Surely Trek wasn't the only thing out there? So basically, I went to my local library, found the SFF section, started at the A, and read everything I could. I'm still working through the alphabet.

One of the things I did was to make a conscious decision not to skip any book because it didn't look like my type of thing. That made sure I got a broad overview of SF, and the more I read, the more I find that most of what I read is... not that good. There's a lot of average stuff out there, some that's really, painfully, whose-kid-did-this-author-kidnap-to-get-published? crap... and some that's really, really, fantastic. The more I read, the more critical I got, and the less I began to be satisfied with Trek.

Perhaps it's part and parcel of franchise writing - there's a certain homogeneity expected in both story and style. But that's another discussion...

I'm at the point now where I'd rather see no Trek than inadequate Trek. It's why I don't read it anymore.

That's not to say that I don't realise how much work goes into writing this stuff. I recently begun to give it a go myself, and if I find my little efforts hard, people who live by writing must have to work like a dog. But appreciation for their efforts can't translate into appreciation for the end result. Quality is independent of effort.

To take an example that, even years later, still annoys me. In Homecoming, when baby Kevin randomly picks up and chews a bit of Borg debris (chances of which must be at least billions to one), well - I'd have to turn off my brain to think that was a good idea, and that neither author or editor dropped the ball by leaving it in.

To my mind, insisting that Trek be as good as it can be, and refusing to support substandard stories, is the best way of improving Trek as a whole. Of course you really love Trek, and your wallet is always open - I've been there! But if it's open for the bad as well as the good, Trek loses economic incentive to produce more good than bad.

The author and editors are free to make bad decisions, but it's the market's job - our job - to ensure that there are as few bad decisions as possible. And that means tough criticism when something's not up to snuff. I agree that people shouldn't be the target - no-one should say to an author "you suck". But we should be absolutely free to say "this story - or this part of your story - sucks. And here's why..."

And it's sad when that upsets authors, but if they can't take it then maybe they're in the wrong job.

 

[Octavia]

Well, if you want a Voyager romance so badly, why not write it yourself as a original SF novel?

Do a book on a starship lost in space and the torrid romance between the stoic but caring captain and her first officer. Just don't call them Katherine and Chakotay.

Calling her Katherine would be fine.

You're missing the point. Lots of women want SF romance - just troll about Amazon for a bit and see how well it sells.

Saying "you can have it, but not in Trek" is not only bad business sense, but it limits the creativity of the series as a whole.

Try turning it around a bit. If all TrekLit was SF romance, and you came along, an ordinary fan, and said "Look, all this mushy stuff does nothing for me. I love the Borg. Why can't we have a book or two on that? I'm really interested in that sort of thing... look at the history of robotics/mind control SF! Couldn't you tweak that to do some really good Borg stories? There's a market for it, you'd attract many more male readers, it would make sense."

And it would make sense. Given that, if someone said to you "Why not write it yourself as an original SF novel? Just give Picard and the Borg a different name" what would you think?

 

[shanejayell]

If I really wanted to see it, I'd try to write it, probably.


(I'm a fanfic author, so it's not the best challenge to try on me)

 

[Octavia]

Oh, don't tempt me to challenge you! I'd come up with something evil... it would probably involve Neelix, handcuffs, whipped cream, and an NC17 rating. If you could cobble a story out of that without making your readers hurl, Pocket should hire you to write for pay.

 

[Ktrek]

Octavia,

I don't really know how you can know if something is "substandard" until you have actually read it. Just because Janeway is not in a Voyager book does not mean the book will be substandard. Janeway is NOT Voyager she was (past-tense) a member of the crew, indeed the captain at one time, but those days are over and long past. Her history post finale has taken her in a different direction past Voyager. Voyager is a ship and it has a crew, a crew that is in flux I might add, and to try and invent some crazy scheme to get the original crew back together would IMHO be a bad decision and lead to probably bad stories as well. I enjoy that there is a natural flow of events in the Star Trek books now and that there is more freedom for characters to come and go. No one character is stuck to one ship anymore just because that character happened to be on a particular show.

As for authors getting upset I can honestly say that I have never seen an author upset on here when there has been criticism of their work, if the poster stays with just that...criticism. Unfortunately, as this thread quite clearly and plainly testifies, the authors come under attack personally and there is a huge huge difference.

If you don't like an editorial choice of direction or a scene in a book then feel free to say so but don't attack the people themselves. The editors and authors are doing the very best they can to provide the fans with the best Star Trek stories possible. Star Trek will likely never be on the lines of hard sci-fi and that's OK because most of the fans who like Star Trek are not into that either. We want stories with hope and optimism for the future. Star Trek Destiny is a very good example of how good Star Trek can be and I hope we see more stories like it, but every book will not be nor can be a masterpiece.

If Voyager books have fallen short in the past I have to believe that Pocket Books is trying it's very best to turn that around. And I say that because they have a good track record with the direction they have taken with DS9, TNG, TTN, SCE, NF, TOS, ENT and the other series that they are publishing. I personally have faith that Kirsten is going to give us a couple of the best Voyager books ever written but you, nor I, can evaluate that until you actually read them.

Kevin

 

[shanejayell]

*dies laughing*

Could it involve Janeway and Seven? Or possibly Janeway and B'Elanna?

 

[Octavia]

Octavia,

I don't really know how you can know if something is "substandard" until you have actually read it. Just because Janeway is not in a Voyager book does not mean the book will be substandard.

I quite agree. I've never said that the upcoming duology are substandard. What I have said is that I have found the past Voyager relaunch books to be substandard, and that doesn't give me hope for a great leap in quality. A great leap upwards would be nice, but it hasn't trended that way thus far, IMO. Hence my scepticism.

As for authors getting upset I can honestly say that I have never seen an author upset on her when there have been criticism of their works if the poster stays with just that...criticism. Unfortunately as this thread quite clearly and plainly testifies the authors come under attack personally and there is a huge huge difference....

If you don't like an editorial choice of direction or a scene in a book then feel free to say so but don't attack the people themselves. The editors and authors are doing the very best they can to provide the fans with the best Star Trek stories possible.

Again, I agree, as I said in a previous post. Criticising the story is fine. Criticising the author/editor is not.

Star Trek will likely never be on the lines of hard sci-fi and that's OK because most of the fans who like Star Trek are not into that either. We want stories with hope and optimism for the future. Star Trek Destiny is a very good example of how good Star Trek can be and I hope we see more stories like it, but every book will not be nor can be a masterpiece.

Not it can't. I don't think it is unreasonable, though, to expect that every book is as good as it can be. Again, I don't think that can be said of the relaunch thus far - to be brutally honest, the quality control is, IMO, not nearly as high as it should be.

Yes, Trek is about hope. But that hope doesn't have to be expressed in one set of stories, and it's here that I think we actually disagree. Exploring Trek through different types of SF, and different styles of writing, would give greater creative possibilities, IMO, and attract a wider range of readers. Killing off Janeway has scuppered the best chance of bringing in the biggest subgenre audience, I think.

If Voyager books have fallen short in the past I have to believe that Pocket Books is trying it's very best to turn that around. And I say that because they have a good track record with the direction they have taken DS9, TNG, TTN, SCE, NF, TOS, ENT and the other series that they are publishing. I personally have faith that Kirsten is going to give us a couple of the best Voyager books ever written but you, nor I, cannot evaluate that until you actually read them.

Kevin

Of course they can't. But for me, the disillusionment has become so great that blind faith in the quality of future Voyager books doesn't cut it anymore. You may have faith, and you may have to believe, but I don't. I want solid evidence, and the relaunch hasn't given me enough to share your optimism. At best, if I were ever to read them again in future (and that is a very big if, considering - Janeway was the only reason I was staying on with the relaunch; it certainly wasn't for plot, character development or language), they'd be library copies. I certainly won't shell out on another Trek book again unless I know it's worth buying.

 

[Octavia]

*dies laughing*

Could it involve Janeway and Seven? Or possibly Janeway and B'Elanna?

Can involve anyone you like, as long as Neelix is the main character and is intimately involved in the sex scene. Don't want to make it too easy for you.

For all we know, Torres is secretly sent into bouts of nymphomania by spotted fur in strange places.