Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Dayton Ward]

Dayton, Keith, if you can't at least try to help, get out of the kitchen. I mean it.

Excuse me.

I've held my tongue while this cast of characters has insulted, maligned, and accused me and my friends, without justification or apology. We've been called sexist, mysogynyst, unprofessional liars, had our comments miscontrued, distorted, or flat out ignored. I owe nothing to anyone who wanders in here with a chip on their shoulder, ready to pass summary judgment upon me without reading my work, let alone getting to know me as a person, in the name of passing off a half-assed "opinion."

I don't even give a tinker's damn about the fate of Janeway one way or another, but if we're going to keep going down this road -- and based on the fact that this preposterous excercise has been allowed to propogate to multiple threads. it appears that's the way things will be -- then I'm going to start smacking back.

 

[RonG]

now we're talkin'

If we're gonna go round and round in circles, with in' Janeway being to call to arms, at least make it interesting!

BTW, just to make it clear - I'm with Dayton !

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ And just so I'm clear, I'm not looking for a fight. But, I'm tired of getting smacked around just because my name on a book cover seems to imply I'm an easy target, particularly when they don't know me or read my work, and are just tossing me in with some sweeping generalization because they're on one jihad or another.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Dayton, Keith, if you can't at least try to help, get out of the kitchen. I mean it.

But I've had more than enough of the official "franchise" and character destruction.

“There’s nothing for us here anymore”

Former Maquis commander novak to Kes in my fanfiction story "Strange Dreams"

Fine, that's your decision and you're perfectly entitled to it. I don't think anyone here ever said you weren't.

Where you're coming from as a reader is exactly what happened to me as a writer. I said that same quote to several people when I withdrew my name from consideration for future Trek projects back in 2006. I contributed to the fiction where I could, and there was just nothing left for me to contribute to anymore. The line is going in a different direction from where you're going as a reader. Did the same thing to me as a writer. If you're a 24th Century fan like me, you weren't on the same path with Trek for ENT, and now your path is diverging from VOY. Yeah, it sucks, but that's the way life goes. We have our friends for a time, but then their lives move away from ours, and if we can't/won't keep up, then we move away from them.

I'm right there with you, but there's got to be a time when we realize that, you know, we're just getting pissed off over something we can't change, making ourselves look like fools by continually going into histrionics over it, and really, why not put the energy that anger is raising into something more constructive? Because it's only going to eat you up from the inside and make you an angry, bitter, perpetually mean person if you don't. What does the anger get you? A little bit of attention for the righteous indignation? What's that worth in the grand scheme of things?

Why not channel that anger into your writing, get some original novels out there, and then try to walk back into Trek as an experienced novelist and pitch the perfect "bring back Janeway" story? That's a far more constructive use of energy than what we've been doing in this thread, no?

Well said.

 

[TerriO]

No, you don't owe anything to someone who comes in here with a chip on their shoulder, Dayton. Nobody said you did. But, just what the hell do you think I'm trying to do here? Huh? A little help might be appreciated a bit. Unless you'd rather just let the anger go on and on and on until everyone's got warnings and nobody actually has done anything to make the situation any better except vent their spleen all over the screen to people who aren't listening because they're pissed off, too.

I get you're pissed. In your shoes, I would be, too. That said, if you knew my actual thoughts on what's been going on recently? You'd never speak to me again. Goddess knows Keith knows better than to bring the subject up with me. I'm trying to help here. You're throwing cobras into the pool. That's just making the job harder.

ETA: Dammit, I've been working in a diplomat's head too long already. *shakes head*

 

[Semah]

not to be rude or anything, but is this argument still ongoing? what more can be said?

I think this discussion will continue until people here accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Book's decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG book, and that we have a right to voice that opinion just as much as those who like it.

We accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Books' decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG Book, and you, of course, have a right to voice that opinion.

No one's said otherwise.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

not to be rude or anything, but is this argument still ongoing? what more can be said?

I think this discussion will continue until people here accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Book's decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG book, and that we have a right to voice that opinion just as much as those who like it.

We accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Books' decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG Book, and you, of course, have a right to voice that opinion.

No one's said otherwise.

Its just that some of this group not all of them just some have the annoying habit of insulting the editors and writers and accusing them of things without any proof what so ever.

 

[Johnhead99]

Trek Lit is amazing. Period. I hope very much that it will never go away. Star Trek in general gives me great pleasure and I hope my children some day will be able to enjoy it like I have.

I for one will never turn my back on Trek. As far as I am concerned, my wallet will always be open to Trek related material in any form. I really can't get enough of it. If I couldn't read Trek every night before bed, I really am not sure what I would do with myself.

I'm actually happy to see your enthusiasm for everything Star Trek. Touching in a way.

You know, I used to be the same once.

It is impossible to please everyone. And with that in mind, I never let below average Trek get me down. I've read probably 200 trek books, and there have been maybe 20 I didnt care for and about 40 I really really liked. The others fell somewhere between.

The Janeway death wasn't going to please everyone, but if that is the direction they decide to go, so be it.

That is my .02

 

[Dayton Ward]

I get you're pissed. In your shoes, I would be, too. That said, if you knew my actual thoughts on what's been going on recently? You'd never speak to me again. Goddess knows Keith knows better than to bring the subject up with me. I'm trying to help here. You're throwing cobras into the pool. That's just making the job harder.

Your attempts are laudable, Terri; in keeping with what I'd expect not only from you but also anyone with their name highlighted in green on this board.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not pissed; I'm simply tired of being tarred and feathered by people who through voice and action do not appear interested in reasoned discussion. If they were, this thread would not have started off the way it did, and the first post from each of the "dissenters" would have been different from what they were (with the notable and very much appreciated exception of Gorf). Certain individuals would not have taken their histrionics to other boards, and deliberately misrepresented comments made during discussions held on this board (I already called one such person on that very behavior on another board, soon after which the thread in question mysteriously vanished).

So, to restate your question to the group: Are we truly interested in a civil discussion, or flinging fire?

 

[elaithin]

It's a completely pointless argument, in any event. Nothing said here (and it's not like this hasn't been said, too) is going to change the fact that Janeway is dead because that's the direction the story called for. It's happened, it's published, we're several books beyond it now. Finis.

 

[Sci]

not to be rude or anything, but is this argument still ongoing? what more can be said?

I think this discussion will continue until people here accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Book's decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG book, and that we have a right to voice that opinion just as much as those who like it.

You have a right to your opinions, but so do we, and we will be heard; preferably, without rude comments and labels such as 'militant Janeway fans' created, it would seem, simply from an intense dislike for the fact that we've finally decided to speak up for what we believe in and care about.

You might have had the company of a few vocal newbies the past few days, but to call us militant is clearly an exageration in my opinion - unless of course militant simply means determined to be heard, in which case it could be said for all of us.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't mind the opinion that it was a bad idea to kill Janeway. In fact, I share that opinion.

I object to accusations of malicious or sexist motivation in the decision to kill Janeway, and to a refusal to acknowledge that the editors and writers can have legitimate creative differences of opinion. That's why I call some people "militant Janeway fans" -- because they behave like hysterical reactionaries who interpret the decision to kill Janeway as an ideological attack or personal insult rather than as a creative decision made in the interests of trying to find the best story possible.

 

[Gorf]

Edit - Sorry, I hit reply instead of quote, but several posts got between the post I was replying to and mine so...I hope to remedy that with this edit.

Written by Semah:

We accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Books' decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG Book, and you, of course, have a right to voice that opinion.

No one's said otherwise.

I don't think you do, not from where I stand anyway.

You keep arguing how small a community we are, that we are nothing but a minority and that we should simply shut up and accept that she died in that TNG book and move on - AND buy other Star Trek books.

You also say we should just accept that the Voyager crew and Janeway got sidelined because of an oversight, so to speak, by the editors/publishers. They just happened to wait for Christie Golden and when she wasn't available they conveniently forgot to assign someone else.

Now that might be true, but to a lot of us that shows a lack of interest in the show and the character(s).

I've seen a lot of good points being argued the past few days and I've enjoyed that, but you still claim that we're a minority and have no right to disagree with the editor or rather we should shut up already.

If you stop telling us that we shouldn't be upset and just read other Star Trek books, then we might just stop as well, but until then I dont feel that our views have been respected.

I have nothing against the writers. They do a fantastic job and I know it's no easy task to write a book, but I do have issues with those, who make the decisions and decided this was a great move.

 

[Sci]

I don't think you do, not from where I stand anyway.

You keep arguing how small a community we are, that we are nothing but a minority and that we should simply shut up and accept that she died in that TNG book and move on - AND buy other Star Trek books.

You also say we should just accept that the Voyager crew and Janeway got sidelined because of an oversight, so to speak, by the editors/publishers. They just happened to wait for Christie Golden and when she wasn't available they conveniently forgot to assign someone else.

Now that might be true, but to a lot of us that shows a lack of interest in the show and the character(s).

I've seen a lot of good points being argued the past few days and I've enjoyed that, but you still claim that we're a minority and have no right to disagree with the editor or rather we should shut up already.

If you stop telling us that we shouldn't be upset and just read other Star Trek books, then we might just stop as well, but until then I dont feel that our views have been respected.

To whom is this a response?

I have nothing against the writers. They do a fantastic job and I know it's no easy task to write a book, but I do have issues with those, who make the decisions and decided this was a great move.

For clarification: Are you saying that you have an issue with the person who made the decision, or are you saying you haven an issue with the decision itself?

I have issues with the decision to kill Janeway. In my opinion, it will not lead to superior stories. But I have no issues with Margaret Clark, former editor Marco Palmieri, Peter David, or Kirsten Beyer.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Sorry, Gorf, but this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about:

You keep arguing how small a community we are, that we are nothing but a minority and that we should simply shut up and accept that she died in that TNG book and move on - AND buy other Star Trek books.

Sorry, but that's not at all what's been said. Please show one post where someone was told to "shut up." Don't go by what you've been told second-hand before venturing over here; read the threads and provide the link, please.

You also say we should just accept that the Voyager crew and Janeway got sidelined because of an oversight, so to speak, by the editors/publishers. They just happened to wait for Christie Golden and when she wasn't available they conveniently forgot to assign someone else.

That's never been said, either. VGR was not sidelined due to oversight. Initially, the delay was due to Christie Golden's availability and the editor's desire to keep the series with the single author, coupled with the demands of the rest of the publishing schedule. When it became obvious that CG would not be returning, other editors were now in charge of the VGR line and had different ideas about how to take the story forward. Getting that developed, eventually in concert with the rest of the 24th century fiction and -- again -- dealing with the other concerns surrounding the publishing schedule, took time to work out. Nothing malicious was intended, toward the series or its fans.

 

[Semah]

Edit - Sorry, I hit reply instead of quote, but several posts got between the post I was replying to and mine so...I hope to remedy that with this edit.

Written by Semah:

We accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Books' decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG Book, and you, of course, have a right to voice that opinion.

No one's said otherwise.

I don't think you do, not from where I stand anyway.

.

Bless.

 

[TerriO]

I get you're pissed. In your shoes, I would be, too. That said, if you knew my actual thoughts on what's been going on recently? You'd never speak to me again. Goddess knows Keith knows better than to bring the subject up with me. I'm trying to help here. You're throwing cobras into the pool. That's just making the job harder.

Your attempts are laudable, Terri; in keeping with what I'd expect not only from you but also anyone with their name highlighted in green on this board.

Thank you. Three years of my psychiatrist teaching me how to analyze and de-fuse anger, depression and anxiety in myself have to have paid off somehow. (Okay, we're at total fail on de-fusing anxiety, that's too deep-rooted, but the other two seem to have taken.) I see where Lynx and the others are coming from. But I can also see how they're just going to make themselves into balls of anger if they keep this up. If there's something that I've learned that can help, I'm going to speak up and get involved.

But there's no way to know if anything has changed if people keep acting like zoo monkeys and fling feces at each other. Seriously, Dayton, what does getting smartass at people here get you? A moment's vindication? A brief satisfaction of bitchslapping someone? What's the benefit of getting into it? What do you get besides prolonging the argument?

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not pissed; I'm simply tired of being tarred and feathered by people who through voice and action do not appear interested in reasoned discussion.

Dude, have you MET the Internet?

If they were, this thread would not have started off the way it did, and the first post from each of the "dissenters" would have been different from what they were (with the notable and very much appreciated exception of Gorf). Certain individuals would not have taken their histrionics to other boards, and deliberately misrepresented comments made during discussions held on this board (I already called one such person on that very behavior on another board, soon after which the thread in question mysteriously vanished).

So, to restate your question to the group: Are we truly interested in a civil discussion, or flinging fire?

Thats' a very good question.

 

[Defcon]

I don't think you do, not from where I stand anyway.

You keep arguing how small a community we are, that we are nothing but a minority and that we should simply shut up and accept that she died in that TNG book and move on - AND buy other Star Trek books.

I must admit I started to only skim through all these threads after a while, but I think the point that was actually made, was that of the number of people watching the series, only a fraction actually reads the books (something <5%), and only a very, very tiny fraction of these actually care to talk about the on the web. So in the end we all are just a minority, with our opinions (no matter if they're for or against the direction of the line) being utterly unimportant to the editors and authors, in the end only sales will influence the direction.

Just one example: Articles of the Federation got (almost) nothing but raving reviews on the web, yet the sales weren't good enough to warrant a direct sequel.

You also say we should just accept that the Voyager crew and Janeway got sidelined because of an oversight, so to speak, by the editors/publishers. They just happened to wait for Christie Golden and when she wasn't available they conveniently forgot to assign someone else.

Now that might be true, but to a lot of us that shows a lack of interest in the show and the character(s).

Nobody said you have to accept this, we were just trying to give you the background informations about the reasons the Voy-R was in limboland for so long.

I've seen a lot of good points being argued the past few days and I've enjoyed that, but you still claim that we're a minority and have no right to disagree with the editor or rather we should shut up already.

Nobody said you should shut up, only that the debate should remain civil and that coming in guns blazing accusing the people involved in the creation of the books certainly isn't the way to get your point across. Actually I think you're one of those who have made your case in a good way, so I hope you won't join into the crusade and sink to the level of others out of a misguided feeling of solidarity.

If you stop telling us that we shouldn't be upset and just read other Star Trek books, then we might just stop as well, but until then I don't feel that our views have been respected.

Being upset about something and want to talk about it is totally normal and I would like to think that nobody here has anything against someone doing so. But like I said above, only If it is done in a polite, civil manner.

Sadly, your thread, which was started in such a way, got caught up in an already ongoing "discussion" which was far away from being civil and polite.

 

[Gorf]

I'm sorry and I realize that nobody has used those exact words in this thread, but it is the impression I get when people tell us to accept it and move on.

I'm perfectly happy with the fact that many of you do not agree with us and you're perfectly entitled to disagree with us as it would be an incredibly boring world if we all agreed on everything.

I also acknowledge that 'oversight' was my word and mine alone, but I stand by it. The original idea to stick with one author and that author being CG was a good idea and I respect that. However, after awhile they should have followed up and jumped in with another writer. I think it took them way too long to realize that it was time for that and in so doing I do believe that they themselves created the 'malcontent' that excist in the Janeway fandom.

As I said I have great respect for every writer - Star Trek or otherwise, but I'm afraid I don't have the same respect for the publisher, meaning as I said earlier the one who made the decision.

 

[Gorf]

For clarification: Are you saying that you have an issue with the person who made the decision, or are you saying you haven an issue with the decision itself?

Sorry. I definitely do NOT have issues with the person. I don't know her personally and so I have no reasons to have issues with her on a personal level, but I do have issues with her/their decision. Thanks for asking.

And that of course goes for the editors etc. as well. No issue with the people involved, just the decision.

 

[KRAD]

First off, apologies to everyone for my snottiness, and thanks to TerriO for hanging a lantern on same. Mea culpa.

I'm sorry and I realize that nobody has used those exact words in this thread, but it is the impression I get when people tell us to accept it and move on.

Nobody's said that, either, I don't think, though I'm willing to be proven wrong. (I'm not willing to wade through these threads again... )

The original idea to stick with one author and that author being CG was a good idea and I respect that. However, after awhile they should have followed up and jumped in with another writer.

Uhm, they did. Unfortunately, there was not only Christie's availability, but also the departure of the editor in charge of Voyager (John Ordover), and the editor who then took over that line (Marco Palmieri) having a bunch of other things on his plate besides.

I think it took them way too long to realize that it was time for that and in so doing I do believe that they themselves created the 'malcontent' that excist in the Janeway fandom.

That wasn't what happened, it was that Marco -- and he's been on the record as saying this -- prefers doing it right to doing it fast. It wasn't that he was slow to "realize" anything, it was that he wanted to take the time to make sure that Voyager was handled well going forward.

Having read Full Circle, I think it was worth the wait.