Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Lynx]

Trek Lit is amazing. Period. I hope very much that it will never go away. Star Trek in general gives me great pleasure and I hope my children some day will be able to enjoy it like I have.

I for one will never turn my back on Trek. As far as I am concerned, my wallet will always be open to Trek related material in any form. I really can't get enough of it. If I couldn't read Trek every night before bed, I really am not sure what I would do with myself.

I'm actually happy to see your enthusiasm for everything Star Trek. Touching in a way.

You know, I used to be the same once.

 

[ronny]

Somebody's gotta say it, so it might as well be me.

I think you guys are really, really, really overestimating the amount of fans you're talking about here. Remember, you're talking a very small percentage (the standard I've heard most often used is 5% or less) of the total viewership that even picks up the books. Even looking at optimistic numbers, with the estimated 4 million in viewership in the last season of Voyager, 5% of that would be 200,000 people. Across the entire United States. 200,000 out of 4 MILLION viewers. And that's being optimistic. Can anyone claim for certain to know what 200 Trek fans will do at any one time, let alone 200,000? Anyone who says yes is lying through their teeth.

We can only speak for ourselves. Yes, there are some that will turn their backs because of decisions made. But there are others that may be more willing to pay attention because of those decisions. Every major development in a story is a risk. There's no way to know whether a risk is going to pay off if you don't take it.

And no, I'm not going to end on the Kirk line. That would be obvious.

Although I do find the notion of "casual" fans versus the rabid die-hard fans debating the subject to be fascinating. Why would a "casual" Voyager fan have enough emotional investment in the show to pick up a TNG book, let alone a VOY novel?

I still think it's wrong to simply dismiss those who might be angry and upset over killing off Janeway as "some small minority who doesn't count". Maybe it's this small minority who, due to their ardent fandom, are the people who will carry the relaunch forward in the long run, or could have done it if Janeway hadn't been so rudely treated by those in charge.

OK, normally when I quote someone I trim it down to the basics to get my point across but I think in this case it's important.

Look at what Lynx has done. He as put quotes around the phrase "some small minority who doesn't count". No where does TerriO say that. She doesn't even come close to saying that. She does says "I think you guys are really, really, really overestimating the amount of fans you're talking about here." Those sentences don't even mean the same thing.

I think this is pretty bogus. He's putting quotes around some words and acting like that's what someone else said and it isn't true.

 

[-Brett-]

2. I still believe that many fans of Janeway who are reading the books will abandon them. I'm not sure how it will affect the sales but wouldn't it be better if those fans continued to buy the books?

It's been my observation that the more millitant Voyager fans tend to be fans of just Voyager and don't give two craps about any other Star Trek.

If they just hurt the Voyager line and leave all of the others unaffected, only the Voyager line will suffer. Pocket will just respond by printing more of the lines that still sell.

Since I was never a fan of the show, I'd be perfectly fine with this outcome.

 

[TerriO]

Somebody's gotta say it, so it might as well be me.

I think you guys are really, really, really overestimating the amount of fans you're talking about here. Remember, you're talking a very small percentage (the standard I've heard most often used is 5% or less) of the total viewership that even picks up the books. Even looking at optimistic numbers, with the estimated 4 million in viewership in the last season of Voyager, 5% of that would be 200,000 people. Across the entire United States. 200,000 out of 4 MILLION viewers. And that's being optimistic. Can anyone claim for certain to know what 200 Trek fans will do at any one time, let alone 200,000? Anyone who says yes is lying through their teeth.

We can only speak for ourselves. Yes, there are some that will turn their backs because of decisions made. But there are others that may be more willing to pay attention because of those decisions. Every major development in a story is a risk. There's no way to know whether a risk is going to pay off if you don't take it.

And no, I'm not going to end on the Kirk line. That would be obvious.

Although I do find the notion of "casual" fans versus the rabid die-hard fans debating the subject to be fascinating. Why would a "casual" Voyager fan have enough emotional investment in the show to pick up a TNG book, let alone a VOY novel?

I still think it's wrong to simply dismiss those who might be angry and upset over killing off Janeway as "some small minority who doesn't count". Maybe it's this small minority who, due to their ardent fandom, are the people who will carry the relaunch forward in the long run, or could have done it if Janeway hadn't been so rudely treated by those in charge.

I'm not dismissing anyone. And I never once said anyone doesn't count. Please point out where I said that. I'm merely trying to give this a reality check. Everyone's opinion counts, IMO, but without any actual numbers, you have no idea how many people share your feelings. You can't possibly speak for 200,000 people, can you? Can you speak for 100,000? 50? We can only speak for ourselves. We can only be sure of our own stance. That is my point. We each have one voice. Claiming that some sort of army rides with you in this Quixote-esque crusade? How can you do that and expect to be taken seriously?

Cripes, Lynx, I was right there with you all, having been there more than once before myself, until everyone started going all drama with a capital-and-boldface D. Yeah, I know just how much it sucks to lose a favorite character in a series and see other characters you can't stand be kept around for no reason other than other people like them. (Worf. Remember. The more time spent on Worf, the less interested I automatically become, and it's been like that since long before I started posting here. I'm pissed because nobody will kill the damned character off, how's that one for you?)

You can sit and bitch about it, annoying everyone in a four state radius and making a general nuisance of yourself and only get more frustrated when nothing you do changes anything. Been there, done that, t-shirt's tattered from being laundered so much. It's how I started writing fanfic. (I'm speaking in general here, I'm not saying anyone in particular is behaving that way, so nobody should even INFER this from my words, please), or you can realize that you're pissed off about the death of someone who isn't even real. Yes, this is a death that has affected you, but has it affected you in a way different from someone you physically knew, touched, and spent time with dying? If the answer to that question is "no", I recommend a therapist, because the distinction between fantasy and reality has disappeared.

If the answer is "yes", then how do you deal with the death? Do you assimilate it, go through the grieving process, and go forward with the other characters from your Voyager family? If so, then there are plenty of books for you. However, if you just can't stomach the thought of moving on without the character, can you reach into the Trek universe and physically change that death? Of course you can, in the realms of fanfic. I've been there, too. Granted, this is a unique situation where the death could easily be reversed onscreen if the PTB wanted to go back to the 24th Century, but for the time being, the character is gone. It is up to you how you deal with it.

I suspect a very important thing here is also whether you're just a fan of Voyager, or whether you're a fan of the Star Trek universe as a whole. Me? I'm a 24th Century Trek fan. The others are there, they just don't interest me that much. If you're a Voyager fan, and the others just don't interest you that much? I totally get that. I feel for you, having such a narrow embrace of the Trek universe, but I hear you and I know where you're coming from.

So, what's it gonna be, guys? More Drama? Or actual discussion?

 

[Thrawn]

I can't speak for those who decided about killing off Janeway but if they liked the character, why did they kill her off instead of coming up with a splendid story about her in the next book?

BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT MADE A BETTER STORY!

Do YOU think it made a better story? Clearly not!

But THEY did. And THAT is why they did it.

Can you disagree? YES, of COURSE. But that WAS their motivation, whether you want to believe it or not.

This has been explained to you like 14 times; are you deliberately ignoring that, or do you honestly not understand how someone could disagree with you on this?

 

[aelius]

You ask what episode; I'll tell you "Caretaker", where she destroyed a simple way home to fulfill the spirit of the prime directive.

See, all I got out of that was that neither she nor anyone else on the ship (like the Vulcan security chief who supposedly has years and years of experience) was bright enough to rig a delayed detonation device so that they could get home and blow up the Caretaker's array.....

Damn you KRAD! I have been bitching about this for years, I had this whole line about the ancient technology called a time bomb.
And you had to go and steal my thunder....
You may roll out your evil laugh now.

 

[KRAD]

^

 

[aelius]

^

I am duly laughed at.

 

[KRAD]

^ Yes. Yes, you are.

You, uh, want your thunder back? Honestly, I don't have room for it.......................

 

[aelius]

No, returned thunder just isn't the same....

 

[Aaron McGuire]

Honestly I never understood why in regular trek they never bumped off any regulars characters that couldn't be brought back. And before you point it out, Jadzia only half counts as Dax just came back in different host. I like Ezri fine, but I would've been cool with them implanting Dax in someone else that wouldn't have showed up on DS9 out of the blue.

But I digest...

Really, if it fits the story (which Janeway's death did) then I don't see what the big deal with killing her is. People die. It sucks. Even when they aren't real people. But it happens. Deal.

Aaron McGuire

 

[Thrawn]

For some reason, Aaron, I saw your avatar, read "LOGIC", then read "Location: Here.", and I thought to myself, "well, that's certainly logical!", and then burst out laughing.

Just thought I'd share.

 

[Aaron McGuire]

For some reason, Aaron, I saw your avatar, read "LOGIC", then read "Location: Here.", and I thought to myself, "well, that's certainly logical!", and then burst out laughing.

Just thought I'd share.

 

[Lynx]

Somebody's gotta say it, so it might as well be me.

I think you guys are really, really, really overestimating the amount of fans you're talking about here. Remember, you're talking a very small percentage (the standard I've heard most often used is 5% or less) of the total viewership that even picks up the books. Even looking at optimistic numbers, with the estimated 4 million in viewership in the last season of Voyager, 5% of that would be 200,000 people. Across the entire United States. 200,000 out of 4 MILLION viewers. And that's being optimistic. Can anyone claim for certain to know what 200 Trek fans will do at any one time, let alone 200,000? Anyone who says yes is lying through their teeth.

We can only speak for ourselves. Yes, there are some that will turn their backs because of decisions made. But there are others that may be more willing to pay attention because of those decisions. Every major development in a story is a risk. There's no way to know whether a risk is going to pay off if you don't take it.

And no, I'm not going to end on the Kirk line. That would be obvious.

Although I do find the notion of "casual" fans versus the rabid die-hard fans debating the subject to be fascinating. Why would a "casual" Voyager fan have enough emotional investment in the show to pick up a TNG book, let alone a VOY novel?

I still think it's wrong to simply dismiss those who might be angry and upset over killing off Janeway as "some small minority who doesn't count". Maybe it's this small minority who, due to their ardent fandom, are the people who will carry the relaunch forward in the long run, or could have done it if Janeway hadn't been so rudely treated by those in charge.

I'm not dismissing anyone. And I never once said anyone doesn't count. Please point out where I said that. I'm merely trying to give this a reality check. Everyone's opinion counts, IMO, but without any actual numbers, you have no idea how many people share your feelings. You can't possibly speak for 200,000 people, can you? Can you speak for 100,000? 50? We can only speak for ourselves. We can only be sure of our own stance. That is my point. We each have one voice. Claiming that some sort of army rides with you in this Quixote-esque crusade? How can you do that and expect to be taken seriously?

Cripes, Lynx, I was right there with you all, having been there more than once before myself, until everyone started going all drama with a capital-and-boldface D. Yeah, I know just how much it sucks to lose a favorite character in a series and see other characters you can't stand be kept around for no reason other than other people like them. (Worf. Remember. The more time spent on Worf, the less interested I automatically become, and it's been like that since long before I started posting here. I'm pissed because nobody will kill the damned character off, how's that one for you?)

You can sit and bitch about it, annoying everyone in a four state radius and making a general nuisance of yourself and only get more frustrated when nothing you do changes anything. Been there, done that, t-shirt's tattered from being laundered so much. It's how I started writing fanfic. (I'm speaking in general here, I'm not saying anyone in particular is behaving that way, so nobody should even INFER this from my words, please), or you can realize that you're pissed off about the death of someone who isn't even real. Yes, this is a death that has affected you, but has it affected you in a way different from someone you physically knew, touched, and spent time with dying? If the answer to that question is "no", I recommend a therapist, because the distinction between fantasy and reality has disappeared.

If the answer is "yes", then how do you deal with the death? Do you assimilate it, go through the grieving process, and go forward with the other characters from your Voyager family? If so, then there are plenty of books for you. However, if you just can't stomach the thought of moving on without the character, can you reach into the Trek universe and physically change that death? Of course you can, in the realms of fanfic. I've been there, too. Granted, this is a unique situation where the death could easily be reversed onscreen if the PTB wanted to go back to the 24th Century, but for the time being, the character is gone. It is up to you how you deal with it.

I suspect a very important thing here is also whether you're just a fan of Voyager, or whether you're a fan of the Star Trek universe as a whole. Me? I'm a 24th Century Trek fan. The others are there, they just don't interest me that much. If you're a Voyager fan, and the others just don't interest you that much? I totally get that. I feel for you, having such a narrow embrace of the Trek universe, but I hear you and I know where you're coming from.

So, what's it gonna be, guys? More Drama? Or actual discussion?

No, you never dismissed anyone and you have never said that anyone doesn't count. If my previous post did look as if I accused you for that, then I apologize. It wasn't my intention.

But since I do have a lot of friends among the Star Trek fans, I know that a lot of people are annoyed by the decision to kill off Janeway.

I could actually turn it around and state that the Janeway fans I know all over the net are a larger majority than those on this forum who defend the decision to kill her off. So who are they speaking for? What about their crusade? Many of them aren't even Voyager fans.

As for killing off characters, I've already stated my opinions about that. I think it should be avoided. As for your comments about Worf (who I actually like) and being annoyed over characters, there was a time when I really loathed Seven Of Nine. But I never thought about killing her off in any of my stories. Why? Because even then I saw her as an important part of the Voyager saga. I also knew that a lot of fans like the character and how would they react if they stumbled over one of my stories? Besides that, I wouldn't want to be like Berman and his gang who I've openly criticized for the destruction of one of my favorite characters, Kes.

As for "real deaths", I've had my fair share of that among parents, relatives and friends. A good friend of mine died recently and there was a period when at least one relative or friend died every year. Maybe that's the reason I can't stand seeing my favorite Star Trek characters being wiped out one by one for no accpetable reason at all.

As for what kind of fan I am, I'm actually a fan of all Star Trek, most of all 24th century Star Trek just like you. I've actually spent the recent months going through some TNG episodes even if I do like the Voyager characters most. Or to speak frankly, I love Star Trek, the characters, the Star Trek universe and the whole premise for the show. What I don't like are the "people in suits who are in charge" because they have a nasty habit of coming up with decisions which annoys me and many other fans. Sometimes I wonder if money is the only thing they care about.

I can tell you that there are some things in the previous relaunches I haven't been that happy with (too many main characters gone from the stories) but I've been ready to accept that. But the decision to kill off Janeway was the final straw. First of all, I find her one of the best Star Trek characters. I find the killing of of Janeway a mistake since they could have wasted their energy to come up with something more constructive for the character. Not to mention that killing off Janeway has opened the Pandora's box. If they can kill off the main character of Voyager, who will be the next. I don't like that scenario.

No, I have no intention to assimilate Janeway's death, go through the grieving process, and go forward with the other characters from the Voyager family. It's all over for me. I've had enough of character destruction and I want no part of the official "franchise" and the people in suits in their offices anymore.

As for protesting and writing angry comments, well if I and other fans who dislike certain decisions didn't do that, then the people in charge would say "look, we killed off Janeway and everybody's happy with that". I don't want them to have that illusion.

So what's left is fanfiction. I've actually written some stories myself of which two are to find on my website. I did actually try to adapt them to what was going on in the relaunch books since I did consider the relaunch as more and less canon and as parts of the ongoing Star trek story. Now I don't care about that anymore. I can dump the original Voyager crew together and send them to the Andromeda galaxy for new adventures, we'll see what I can come up with. Lack of time is a problem for me.

Not to mention that there are other fanfiction around as well, written by arednt fans who cares about the characters. However, I must buy a laptop since my favorite reading place is not in the same room as my computer.

But I've had more than enough of the official "franchise" and character destruction.

“There’s nothing for us here anymore”

Former Maquis commander novak to Kes in my fanfiction story "Strange Dreams"

 

[RonG]

not to be rude or anything, but is this argument still ongoing?
what more can be said?

it seems pretty obvious that no side is actually going to change its mind, and the exchange of ideas, as it were, is running around in circles.

theres a fundemental difference in how fans like Lynx view the franchise, with its editorial liberties, and how other fans, like Thrawn, see it.

Personally, when I was younger, I cared very much for the "well being" of my favorite fictional characters (in TV, cartoons, comics and books), so I can totally see where Lynx is coming from. Recent years have shifted my focus to enjoying the story/plot development even when this calls for difficulties, hardship and death for characters.

In the case of Before Dishonor, which I'm currently re-reading, I thought that death would actually be a "release" for Janeway, after being forced to succumb (sp?) to her greatest enemy and used against Starfleet...

 

[LaBarre]

not to be rude or anything, but is this argument still ongoing?
what more can be said?

it seems pretty obvious that no side is actually going to change its mind, and the exchange of ideas, as it were, is running around in circles.

theres a fundemental difference in how fans like Lynx view the franchise, with its editorial liberties, and how other fans, like Thrawn, see it.

Personally, when I was younger, I cared very much for the "well being" of my favorite fictional characters (in TV, cartoons, comics and books), so I can totally see where Lynx is coming from. Recent years have shifted my focus to enjoying the story/plot development even when this calls for difficulties, hardship and death for characters.

In the case of Before Dishonor, which I'm currently re-reading, I thought that death would actually be a "release" for Janeway, after being forced to succumb (sp?) to her greatest enemy and used against Starfleet...

I agree. What else can be said that actually moves this whole topic forward rather than wallowing in the mire? Nada.

That's why I was quite fond of the carrot or stick approach of one of the other thread topics. That, at least, gave one hope of progress.

 

[KRAD]

Ah, the great Internet fallacy: "Me and my friends didn't like it, so it can't possibly be popular!"

 

[Dayton Ward]

Right up there with "You don't like what I like, so you can't be a 'real' fan."

 

[Gorf]

not to be rude or anything, but is this argument still ongoing? what more can be said?

I think this discussion will continue until people here accept and respect that a segment of the Star Trek fans dislike Pocket Book's decision to kill Janeway, particularly in a TNG book, and that we have a right to voice that opinion just as much as those who like it.

You have a right to your opinions, but so do we, and we will be heard; preferably, without rude comments and labels such as 'militant Janeway fans' created, it would seem, simply from an intense dislike for the fact that we've finally decided to speak up for what we believe in and care about.

You might have had the company of a few vocal newbies the past few days, but to call us militant is clearly an exageration in my opinion - unless of course militant simply means determined to be heard, in which case it could be said for all of us.

 

[TerriO]

Dayton, Keith, if you can't at least try to help, get out of the kitchen. I mean it.

But I've had more than enough of the official "franchise" and character destruction.

“There’s nothing for us here anymore”

Former Maquis commander novak to Kes in my fanfiction story "Strange Dreams"

Fine, that's your decision and you're perfectly entitled to it. I don't think anyone here ever said you weren't.

Where you're coming from as a reader is exactly what happened to me as a writer. I said that same quote to several people when I withdrew my name from consideration for future Trek projects back in 2006. I contributed to the fiction where I could, and there was just nothing left for me to contribute to anymore. The line is going in a different direction from where you're going as a reader. Did the same thing to me as a writer. If you're a 24th Century fan like me, you weren't on the same path with Trek for ENT, and now your path is diverging from VOY. Yeah, it sucks, but that's the way life goes. We have our friends for a time, but then their lives move away from ours, and if we can't/won't keep up, then we move away from them.

I'm right there with you, but there's got to be a time when we realize that, you know, we're just getting pissed off over something we can't change, making ourselves look like fools by continually going into histrionics over it, and really, why not put the energy that anger is raising into something more constructive? Because it's only going to eat you up from the inside and make you an angry, bitter, perpetually mean person if you don't. What does the anger get you? A little bit of attention for the righteous indignation? What's that worth in the grand scheme of things?

Why not channel that anger into your writing, get some original novels out there, and then try to walk back into Trek as an experienced novelist and pitch the perfect "bring back Janeway" story? That's a far more constructive use of energy than what we've been doing in this thread, no?