List of Federation Members

[foravalon]

Probably an alternate name for Proxima Centauri, which is part of the Alpha Centauri trinary and thus presumably part of the same member state.

I'm not willing to make that assumption unless KRAD says so himself. Having said that, I had gotten the Federation Membership status from Memory Beta's list of Federation Members, but the actual Alpha Proxima article cites no reference to it being a Member in its own right, describing it rather as a colony. I'm afraid that I don't have The Brave and the Bold with me -- can anyone confirm Alpha Proxima's Membership status? I'm removing it from the list until/unless I hear otherwise.

The thing is, the only star in reality -- the only thing in all of astronomy -- that's called Proxima anything is Proxima Centauri, aka Alpha Centauri C. It's a unique designator (as it would have to be, since it means "closest," and there can only be one closest star). So what else could "Alpha Proxima" be except Proxima Centauri? There aren't any other Proximae to choose from.

A wise choice not to make that assumption Sci. It looks like you are correct in this matter and it appears that christopher is mistaken. Sorry C-Bizzle. As others have said elsewhere, regardless of whatever fan handwave someone may choose to invent, in this case regarding Alpha Proxima and Proxima Centauri being one and the same, what apparently matters is the Author's intention; and given the text, it doesn't appear that this was the Author's intention.

From The Brave and the Bold by Keith R.A. DeCandido:

Takeshewada turned to Masada. “Talk to me about Proxima, Guillermo.”

Masada reached behind his head and yanked on his ponytail, which he always did right before giving a report. “Your basic Class-M planet—part of the big colonization push after warp drive was discovered, made part of the Federation, gobby gobby gobby. Nothing particularly notable.”

Decker could hear the undercurrent in Masada’s voice, and knew he was dying to add, Unlike, say, a neutron star. “Guillermo, knock it off.”

Sounding nonplussed, Masada said, “Sir?”

“We know you’re angry about cutting the neutron star survey short. Get over it and give a proper report.”

Straightening in his chair, Masada pulled on his ponytail again. “Yes, sir,” he said quickly, and peered into his sensor hood. Blue light shone on his features as he read off the data contained therein. “Alpha Proxima II was colonized in 2189 by the S.S. Esperanza. They set up two cities, both on the northern continent. In fact, the northern polar region’s the only place that’s really comfortable for humans—rest of the planet’s either too hot or covered in water. Current population is about one million four hundred thousand. The government consists of a planetary council run by a chief speaker, and they also have representation on the Federation Council.” He looked up. “You want their chief exports?”

Chuckling, Decker said, “I’ll pass, thanks.”

It also states elsewhere that Beta Proxima is the nearest Star system and is a Neutron Star. Over all Decker doesn't seem very familiar with the world

 

[Sci]

I'm not willing to make that assumption unless KRAD says so himself. Having said that, I had gotten the Federation Membership status from Memory Beta's list of Federation Members, but the actual Alpha Proxima article cites no reference to it being a Member in its own right, describing it rather as a colony. I'm afraid that I don't have The Brave and the Bold with me -- can anyone confirm Alpha Proxima's Membership status? I'm removing it from the list until/unless I hear otherwise.

The thing is, the only star in reality -- the only thing in all of astronomy -- that's called Proxima anything is Proxima Centauri, aka Alpha Centauri C. It's a unique designator (as it would have to be, since it means "closest," and there can only be one closest star). So what else could "Alpha Proxima" be except Proxima Centauri? There aren't any other Proximae to choose from.

A wise choice not to make that assumption Sci. It looks like you are correct in this matter and it appears that christopher is mistaken. Sorry C-Bizzle. As others have said elsewhere, regardless of whatever fan handwave someone may choose to invent, in this case regarding Alpha Proxima and Proxima Centauri being one and the same, what apparently matters is the Author's intention; and given the text, it doesn't appear that this was the Author's intention.

From The Brave and the Bold by Keith R.A. DeCandido:

Takeshewada turned to Masada. “Talk to me about Proxima, Guillermo.”

Masada reached behind his head and yanked on his ponytail, which he always did right before giving a report. “Your basic Class-M planet—part of the big colonization push after warp drive was discovered, made part of the Federation, gobby gobby gobby. Nothing particularly notable.”

Decker could hear the undercurrent in Masada’s voice, and knew he was dying to add, Unlike, say, a neutron star. “Guillermo, knock it off.”

Sounding nonplussed, Masada said, “Sir?”

“We know you’re angry about cutting the neutron star survey short. Get over it and give a proper report.”

Straightening in his chair, Masada pulled on his ponytail again. “Yes, sir,” he said quickly, and peered into his sensor hood. Blue light shone on his features as he read off the data contained therein. “Alpha Proxima II was colonized in 2189 by the S.S. Esperanza. They set up two cities, both on the northern continent. In fact, the northern polar region’s the only place that’s really comfortable for humans—rest of the planet’s either too hot or covered in water. Current population is about one million four hundred thousand. The government consists of a planetary council run by a chief speaker, and they also have representation on the Federation Council.” He looked up. “You want their chief exports?”

Chuckling, Decker said, “I’ll pass, thanks.”

Hm. I don't know. If they have representation on the Council, that strongly implies that they're a Member State in their own right. (On the other hand, if they're part of Alpha Centauri, their representation on the Council would come through the Federation Councillor from Alpha Centauri.) KRAD, can you resolve this dispute?

 

[KRAD]

I intended for Alpha Proxima II to be just what I said it was in the text, and I appreciate foravalon actually, y'know, using the text.

So yes, they're Federation members (if they weren't, Decker and Kirk wouldn't have had the authority to declare martial law), and no, they're not part of Alpha Centauri.

 

[foravalon]

I guess there are two matters at hand, one being whether or not Alpha Proxima is in fact located in the nearest star system to Sol, Alpha Centauri. I think several points in the Author's story indicate it isn't, unless there's a neutron star nearby us that we're unaware of, and/or Matt Decker is completely ignorant about our celestial next door neighbors for the last couple centuries.

The other matter pertains to whether or not Alpha Proxima is a Member World in it's own right, as TBatB would seem to show, with its own individual representation on the Federation Council, or whether they are some random colony that's grouped in with several others.

EDIT: And I'm a Johnny-come-lately... What KRAD said.

btw, Just got a Singular Destiny, Yeah Baby! But when's Issue #2 of Farscape coming out?

 

[Christopher]

I intended for Alpha Proxima II to be just what I said it was in the text, and I appreciate foravalon actually, y'know, using the text.

So yes, they're Federation members (if they weren't, Decker and Kirk wouldn't have had the authority to declare martial law), and no, they're not part of Alpha Centauri.

Which leaves the name of their system rather inexplicable. It means "First Closest."

Oh well, at least it isn't something like Alpha Omicron or Delta Theta. Those are more like sorority names than star names.

 

[Sci]

I intended for Alpha Proxima II to be just what I said it was in the text, and I appreciate foravalon actually, y'know, using the text.

So yes, they're Federation members (if they weren't, Decker and Kirk wouldn't have had the authority to declare martial law), and no, they're not part of Alpha Centauri.

Which leaves the name of their system rather inexplicable. It means "First Closest."

Oh well, at least it isn't something like Alpha Omicron or Delta Theta. Those are more like sorority names than star names.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that star names in Trek are like stardates -- we shouldn't take them too seriously and they aren't meant to stand up to too much scrutiny.

 

[foravalon]

Well put Sci.

 

[JD]

Hmm, would anybody be willing to cofirm Pakwa-than? That's one I've been wondering about ever since we met Ree in Taking Wing.

I don't know if it's been confirmed, but it's been established that there are "only 100" or so Pakwa-than serving in Starfleet. I don't see why that number would be perceived as being unusually low if the Pakwa-than weren't Members. Deanna also describes the Pakwa-than as having greatly enhanced the state of Federation medicine in Taking Wing, if I recall correctly. So I would infer that they are (subject, of course, to later novels' clarification).

Cool, thanks for that Sci. I haven't read anything Titan, other than Destiny, since SoD came so my memory of the books isn't the greatest. And it does certainly sound like they are members to me. I would think that anytime thre is a big deal made over how few of a species there are in Starfleet then it would be pretty likely that they are members. Except of course when it's done in the reverse, and it's a big deal that there are so many members in the fleet, like Worf being the only Kingon, Nog being the only Ferengi, and Dakal being the only Cardassian in SF, or the number of Bajorans pre-membership.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I refuse to believe that there would be a planet whose full name is "Alpha III." That's just silly. It would have to be Alpha Something III. Unless it's a reference to a space station or something rather than a planet in another star system.

Yeah, it is kinda silly. Unfortunately, TOS did this a fair bit: Beta III, Omega IV, Omicron IV. And TMP gave us Delta IV. So, the original episode writer did probably intend for it to be a planet whose full name is Alpha III.

Sci, impressive list. I don't have much to add, but since you mention Deneva's destruction in its entry, just thought I'd mention that

Spoiler: A Singular Destiny and a certain member world

it sounds like Rhaandarel got the Deneva treatment too.

 

[LightningStorm]

Which leaves the name of their system rather inexplicable. It means "First Closest."

Maybe it's the first one closest to Alpha Centauri as opposed to the first one closest to Sol?

 

[Christopher]

Which leaves the name of their system rather inexplicable. It means "First Closest."

Maybe it's the first one closest to Alpha Centauri as opposed to the first one closest to Sol?

Uhh, then it would be Sol. It's not only the closest star to us, we're the closest star to it.

 

[LightningStorm]

I'm not heavy enough into astronomy to really talk about it. But I was just thinking that perhaps it was a situation where AC might be closest to Sol AP could be closer to AC than Sol was in the opposite direction.

For lack of visuals I'll use numbers take: 1, 7, 10, and 15. 1 is Sol, 7 is AC, and 10 is AP. 10 is closer to 7 than 1 is but 7 is still the closest to 1.

But that's neither here nor there if that isn't at all the case. Which it sounds like that is what you are saying.

 

[Christopher]

^^Yep, that's what I'm saying. List of the nearest stars to Alpha Centauri:

http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/find_neighbors.exe?ID=200&ly=15

 

[Timo]

In terms of clear-cut mistakes, Klaestron shouldn't be a UFP member. They were overtly hostile in "Dax" and made it clear that the UFP should keep out of their business.

I can't fathom how the idea first surfaced that these guys could be members - but it persists in so many books now that it may have to be rationalized somehow, such as with them all joining immediately after the events of "Dax" due to a revolution or something.

Also, you probably know my stance on Trill membership...

Yeah, it is kinda silly. Unfortunately, TOS did this a fair bit: Beta III, Omega IV, Omicron IV. And TMP gave us Delta IV. So, the original episode writer did probably intend for it to be a planet whose full name is Alpha III.

We could always argue that our heroes drop parts of star names when they are clear from the context. Either the place is so famous that nobody bothers to give the full name anyway, or our heroes are having their adventures that week within a specific constellation (a tight asterism) and thus drop the constellation name.

Alternately, we could argue that we are mistyping these names. It's not Delta IV, it's Daltay IV; it's not Alpha III, it's Alstha III; it's not Omega IV, it's Omygu IV. Odds are that most words in a foreign language will always resemble differently spelled words of different meaning in other languages - especially in the case of proper names.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

In terms of clear-cut mistakes, Klaestron shouldn't be a UFP member. They were overtly hostile in "Dax" and made it clear that the UFP should keep out of their business.

Doesn't Earth's United Nations have some overtly hostile members at times, who make it clear that the UN should keep out of their business?

 

[GodThingFormerly]

When I chatted to TOS/TMP makeup man Fred Phillips in 1983, he mentioned that the expensive alien ambassadorial costumes were ordered up because there was a plan to have Nogura addressing a "Journey to Babel"-type banquet in which they are told of the gigantic cloud heading for Earth. That idea didn't progress because Robert Wise found most of the masks wanting, and relegated most to background scenes, where little detail would be evident.

That scene isn't mentioned in any In Thy Image/The Motion Picture treatment or script of which I am aware.

TGT

 

[Therin of Andor]

That scene isn't mentioned in any In Thy Image/The Motion Picture treatment or script of which I am aware.

I know, but it was the brief given to Fred when he started sculpting masks. He was disappointed the "big scene" never went anywhere.

 

[Timo]

Doesn't Earth's United Nations have some overtly hostile members at times, who make it clear that the UN should keep out of their business?

Certainly. But if we use this standard, we should argue that the Klingon Empire is a UFP member (quite regardless of the remarks made in the first season of TNG), and that the Cardassian Union is, and that the Ferengi Alliance is, and so forth...

In "Dax", we hear for example the following:

Bad guy Tandro: "The relevant treaty between Klaestron IV and your Federation allows for unilateral extradition."

How much clearer could the writers be about wanting Klaestron IV to be a non-member?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

I know, but it was the brief given to Fred when he started sculpting masks. He was disappointed the "big scene" never went anywhere.

Huh.

TGT

 

[Therin of Andor]

How much clearer could the writers be about wanting Klaestron IV to be a non-member?

Why should they be clearer? They weren't writing the episode so some fan could build an infallible list of trivia.