What happened to the Christian church?

[Augustus]

A motion made by the LDS church GOVERNMENT that doesn't represent the opinions or feelings of all its members... I thought I should throw that out there. Just because one is LDS doesn't mean one is anti-gay-rights.

I did say church. I in no way assume all the members
share the same close minded beliefs.

We're hoping the recent changes in management behind the scenes will soften the stance... But then again we might have women in the priesthood and I might learn how to eat dirt and shit gold bars before it happens.

change in management behind the scenes??? in the LDS church?
huh?

 

[Plecostomus]

We were hoping that new president would institute some changes but for the most part it seems to be business as usual for now... so we continue to work on a local level hopefully our voices filter upwards over time.

 

[trekkerguy]

Well, it all comes down to opinion. My religiously motivated opinion counts just as much at the ballot box as your non religiously motivated opinion. That's America

America does not deny people there rights.

That is not America. It's a fallacy pretending to be America.

What I mean is that everyone's vote is equal, regardless of motivation, that is america..

All votes are equal.

But basic Human rights should not be a voting matter left to bias.

 

[Augustus]

I think one of the great things about the church is that the doctrine is the same and that it doesn't change as public opinion and fashionable thought goes one way or the other.

I don't think that the church's position would ever change on this issue

 

[Star Wolf]

personally I don't have a problem with people mocking my beliefs . . . it's when the ridicule becomes personal that I take offense

the distinction between "What you believe is stupid." VS "You're stupid for believing such a thing."

I know extremely intelligent people who believe in a higher power, I have
friends who are Christian and friends who are Muslim and friends who are
Athiest. I wish not to insult their inelligence, but have no problem with openly
speaking harshly against their beliefs. And it goes both ways.

The theory is stated, that if nobody ever wrote or believed that Moses heard a Burning Bush speak to him that the world would never have known war. But then I ask what lead you to this thread? Do you have an opinion on a church which meets in the Forum and draws more congregants then the Clippers do fans in a week versus a church of three people who meet hiding from an authoratarian government. Do you have an opinion on a church which uses a 10 string harp versus churches which use a 4 string electric bass and 6 string electric guitar and use 80s pop music to worship God?

Do you bring anything to the topic, Or is this just ridicule for riducule sake? Just to start the conflict that religion has been accused of starting?

 

[CaptainHawk1]

personally I don't have a problem with people mocking my beliefs . . . it's when the ridicule becomes personal that I take offense

the distinction between "What you believe is stupid." VS "You're stupid for believing such a thing."

I know extremely intelligent people who believe in a higher power, I have
friends who are Christian and friends who are Muslim and friends who are
Athiest. I wish not to insult their inelligence, but have no problem with openly
speaking harshly against their beliefs. And it goes both ways.

The theory is stated, that if nobody ever wrote or believed that Moses heard a Burning Bush speak to him that the world would never have known war. But then I ask what lead you to this thread? Do you have an opinion on a church which meets in the Forum and draws more congregants then the Clippers do fans in a week versus a church of three people who meet hiding from an authoratarian government. Do you have an opinion on a church which uses a 10 string harp versus churches which use a 4 string electric bass and 6 string electric guitar and use 80s pop music to worship God?

Do you bring anything to the topic, Or is this just ridicule for riducule sake? Just to start the conflict that religion has been accused of starting?

Yep!

-Shawn

 

[Augustus]

I know extremely intelligent people who believe in a higher power, I have
friends who are Christian and friends who are Muslim and friends who are
Athiest. I wish not to insult their inelligence, but have no problem with openly
speaking harshly against their beliefs. And it goes both ways.

The theory is stated, that if nobody ever wrote or believed that Moses heard a Burning Bush speak to him that the world would never have known war. But then I ask what lead you to this thread? Do you have an opinion on a church which meets in the Forum and draws more congregants then the Clippers do fans in a week versus a church of three people who meet hiding from an authoratarian government. Do you have an opinion on a church which uses a 10 string harp versus churches which use a 4 string electric bass and 6 string electric guitar and use 80s pop music to worship God?

Do you bring anything to the topic, Or is this just ridicule for riducule sake? Just to start the conflict that religion has been accused of starting?

Yep!

-Shawn

haha, I agree too

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The catholics came along and said "believe in the church" instead of "believe in Jesus" ...it was all downhill from there.

Bull. I don't know who you're listening to, but it's not any of the priests at the churches I've been to.
<- practicing Catholic

I agree--I don't think it's fair to blame Catholicism for everything that's wrong with churches these days. Aren't the churches that make those sorts of choices responsible for their OWN actions??

 

[Captain Intrepid]

I'm not attacking anyone, just the "Faith" itself. If it is so solid then
those of "Faith" should not have a problem with it being confronted.

That's like saying "I'm not insulting you, I'm just calling your wife a whore."


The spectacle and commerce of the mega churches in the USA, the arrogance and exclusive elitism of the Catholic Church, and the widespread niggling over things like homosexuality are all symptoms of the problems with the worldwide church. It's never been all that good at keeping Christ's message the main thing.

Love God and love your fellow man. Live simply and honestly. Forgive and console.

We don't take this stuff seriously these days, not as a body.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Why would you wish for church closings????
Beyond religion, many churches do a ton for communities and charities.

Churches, by and large are a source of good.

Christians can pay taxes like everybody else and those taxes can go to social programs that are "by and large a source of good".

Now, you're going to say, But we do pay taxes!! Yes, and you get a break on taxes with your contributions to churches and charities.

 

[Augustus]

Why would you wish for church closings????
Beyond religion, many churches do a ton for communities and charities.

Churches, by and large are a source of good.

Christians can pay taxes like everybody else and those taxes can go to social programs that are "by and large a source of good".

Now, you're going to say, But we do pay taxes!! Yes, and you get a break on taxes with your contributions to churches and charities.

Depends actually. Because I am single, I don't contribute enough of my meager income to get a break on taxes in my charitable contributions. So yes, I already do pay taxes!!!

Plus, for the most part, churches are MUCH more efficient in getting money through their organization to the actual cause they are trying to help.
Government may collect $100 for you and you can bet that a good chunk of that never leaves their office.

 

[The Super Brando]

Whatever the church does, whatever it's methods, it will always be criticized. Ironically it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation the church always faces.

If they stayed traditional, with only old methods and an old structure, then the church would be criticized for being out of touch and old-fashioned and unwilling to adapt. But then if you use modern technology and contemporary music and building setup then the church is criticized for trying to market Christianity or being fluff.

Certainly there is truth in many of those criticisms, because many churches are out of touch and others are just fluff. But not every church is like that.

From what the OP described it sounds like a pretty good community they have.

 

[Captain X]

Christians can pay taxes like everybody else and those taxes can go to social programs that are "by and large a source of good".

Now, you're going to say, But we do pay taxes!! Yes, and you get a break on taxes with your contributions to churches and charities.

So? I, as a secularist, see no problem there unless it can be proven such charities are discriminatory.

 

[Augustus]

you mean charities from churches and such?

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I am quite happy and PLEASED to report that the Catholic Church never changes. There were no material changes for quite literally centuries...until Vatican II in the mid-1960's.

And since Vatican II, there have been no additional material changes.

Yeah, the architecture of the newly built churches might change over time (stained glass is WAY expensive). And they might stick in a 'teen mass' on Sunday night or something.

But for the most part, the Catholic Church is the same as it was 1,000 years go. Only now the mass is in the congregation's vernacular and the priest faces the people.

2,000 years...and that's pretty much the extent of the Catholic Church's 'change': moving the furniture around and speaking a language people understand.

The theology is the same, the mass is the same, the sacraments are the same, the hierarchy is the same.

It's like the MacDonald's of churches! Wherever you go on earth, step into a Catholic Church and you know what you're gonna get.

Edit to add:

As for those of you who think the Catholic Church made itself the center rather than Jesus....well, you are just flat out wrong.

You do, of course, realize, that at every SINGLE Catholic Church service (except during certain days of Holy Week), a mass which celebrates the death and resurrection of Jesus is said?

Most Churches run about 5 or 6 Masses on Sunday and two during every other day of the week. This means that each individual Catholic Church celebrates the death and resurrection of Jesus about 18 times a week.

Jesus's death and resurrection is precisely what the Mass is all ABOUT.

I don't know how you could GET anymore 'about Jesus' than the Mass....which is an intimate experience WITH JESUS.

We don't get off into all sorts of teachings from some man-of-the hour self-educated preacher who can't even read Greek, Hebrew, Latin, or Aramaic but pretends to know what all the scriptures say and tells us what tickles our ears and makes us happy. We don't hitch our eternal destiny to some flash-in-the-pan evangelist who is here today, gone tomorrow (usually with pockets bulging with the congregants money)

No...we are still with the teachings of the Church - teachings which are 2,000 years old. Teachings which have been preserved for 2,000 years - DESPITE the faults and weaknesses of individual men - several of them Popes! Church teaching has been maintained - even through the most corrupt of times....and is still there for those who REALLY want to follow.

THAT is why Catholics have a reverence for the Church - because we KNOW that that Church is the vehicle by which God has preserved truth.

Men come and go - some of them evil and some of them good - in ALL religions. But the Catholic Church has stood steadfastly in the place it was 2,000 years ago. Not budging for the winds of doctrine which blow one way and then another. Not budging for today's fashions in religious doctrine. Not budging due to the influences of evil and temptation in our world or to the machinations of manipulative men - even in the Church's very midst.

THAT is what makes the Church important to the Catholic. Not because we worship buildings or the men in them. But because the Church has been preserved by God as the vehicle by which his teachings will endure. Steadfast...and NOT blowing in the winds of change....winds which change so often that if it hadn't been for the Catholic Church, Christianity would no doubt not even EXIST today.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

I am quite happy and PLEASED to report that the Catholic Church never changes. There were no material changes for quite literally centuries...until Vatican II in the mid-1960's.

And since Vatican II, there have been no additional material changes.

Yeah, the architecture of the newly built churches might change over time (stained glass is WAY expensive). And they might stick in a 'teen mass' on Sunday night or something.

But for the most part, the Catholic Church is the same as it was 1,000 years go. Only now the mass is in the congregation's vernacular and the priest faces the people.

2,000 years...and that's pretty much the extent of the Catholic Church's 'change': moving the furniture around and speaking a language people understand.

The theology is the same, the mass is the same, the sacraments are the same, the hierarchy is the same.

It's like the MacDonald's of churches! Wherever you go on earth, step into a Catholic Church and you know what you're gonna get.

Edit to add:

As for those of you who think the Catholic Church made itself the center rather than Jesus....well, you are just flat out wrong.

You do, of course, realize, that at every SINGLE Catholic Church service (except during certain days of Holy Week), a mass which celebrates the death and resurrection of Jesus is said?

Most Churches run about 5 or 6 Masses on Sunday and two during every other day of the week. This means that each individual Catholic Church celebrates the death and resurrection of Jesus about 18 times a week.

Jesus's death and resurrection is precisely what the Mass is all ABOUT.

I don't know how you could GET anymore 'about Jesus' than the Mass....which is an intimate experience WITH JESUS.

We don't get off into all sorts of teachings from some man-of-the hour self-educated preacher who can't even read Greek, Hebrew, Latin, or Aramaic but pretends to know what all the scriptures say and tells us what tickles our ears and makes us happy. We don't hitch our eternal destiny to some flash-in-the-pan evangelist who is here today, gone tomorrow (usually with pockets bulging with the congregants money)

No...we are still with the teachings of the Church - teachings which are 2,000 years old. Teachings which have been preserved for 2,000 years - DESPITE the faults and weaknesses of individual men - several of them Popes! Church teaching has been maintained - even through the most corrupt of times....and is still there for those who REALLY want to follow.

THAT is why Catholics have a reverence for the Church - because we KNOW that that Church is the vehicle by which God has preserved truth.

Men come and go - some of them evil and some of them good - in ALL religions. But the Catholic Church has stood steadfastly in the place it was 2,000 years ago. Not budging for the winds of doctrine which blow one way and then another. Not budging for today's fashions in religious doctrine. Not budging due to the influences of evil and temptation in our world or to the machinations of manipulative men - even in the Church's very midst.

THAT is what makes the Church important to the Catholic. Not because we worship buildings or the men in them. But because the Church has been preserved by God as the vehicle by which his teachings will endure. Steadfast...and NOT blowing in the winds of change....winds which change so often that if it hadn't been for the Catholic Church, Christianity would no doubt not even EXIST today.

You need to capitalize your "T" in "Truth" but other than that I agree with everything you just said. This may be the most brilliant explanation by a lay person of the Church's consistency and dedication to Christ that I've ever seen.

I've purposely avoided long drawn out debates in this thread because as usual on the trekbbs, the Atheists have the floor and are using a thread as a forum to bash people of Faith and their Faith.

I'm just tired of wasting my time with it and will simply go only as far as to request that they stop being hostile and offensive.

Last week I got into a big long exchange with some Former-Catholic-in-his-youth-turned-Atheist who took the opportunity to piss all over everything I tried to explain to him about how the Faith of Christians and of course Catholics in particular operates. I wasn't trying to convert anyone, people were asking questions and I was explaining how it works for us.

It of course, degenerated into the poster attacking not just our Faith, but the process of our Faith in regards to the Church (in other words how we interpret the Bible and what the role of the Bible has in guiding us, how it relates to Church doctrine, etc.) and of course how irrational and contradictory it is.

Eventually, the thread got shut down but I had decided a day earler that I wasn't going to waste my time with Atheists who don't even have enough common courtesy to not attack us and our Faith when we've never done that to them on this board. I've simply decided that all my comments to Atheists in the future are going to be nothing more than attempts to point them out and try to shame them for their lack of civility towards us.

As Captain Intrepid so brilliantly put it:

I'm not attacking anyone, just the "Faith" itself. If it is so solid then
those of "Faith" should not have a problem with it being confronted.

That's like saying "I'm not insulting you, I'm just calling your wife a whore."

And that's exactly what goes on in every thread regardless of whether it's about religion or not. The Atheists on this board continue to find any avenue they can to attack those of us with Faith and our Faith.

If it were any other subject or any other target (see: homosexuals or any race or ethnicity), it would be considered flaming and wouldn't be tolerated. The Mods need to step in and stop this nonsense. It's not fair that we're under attack everyday by these people. Disagreeing is one thing, but outright attacking us and our Faith is unacceptable.

-Shawn

 

[Amaris]

^ To be fair, it's not right to say "The Atheists" as if they're all a part of one organization. I mean, there are Christians who lie, cheat, steal and run people off the road, but you don't mix them in with all Christians. Some atheists have a problem with religion in every incarnation, but most atheists tend to live more of a "Let bygones be bygones" sort of arrangement. There are a number of militant few, and you will find them all across the spectrum, whether they be atheist or religious.

J.

 

[Strider]

Words Words

This, this, and this. I never liked Catholicism until I started attending Mass on a regular basis. Now I love it. What other church can get college-aged students out of bed at three in the morning to spend at an hour in church for adoration of the Eucharist (the body and blood of Christ)? None that I know of. That's devotion right there. And they're some of the nicest people I've ever met and I'm so grateful to call some of them friends. Planning on going through RCIA next fall.

And believe me, for all the rightful veneration of Mary and the Saints and for all our appreciation of the Church, the Triune God alone is worthy of our worship. Seriously, even if you never have the slightest interest in becoming Catholic, attending Mass once or twice in your life is a great experience. Try for a midnight Mass on Christmas if you really wanna see something impressive.

 

[RyanKCR]

^ To be fair, it's not right to say "The Atheists" as if they're all a part of one organization. I mean, there are Christians who lie, cheat, steal and run people off the road, but you don't mix them in with all Christians. Some atheists have a problem with religion in every incarnation, but most atheists tend to live more of a "Let bygones be bygones" sort of arrangement. There are a number of militant few, and you will find them all across the spectrum, whether they be atheist or religious.

J.

Yes but he was talking about those on the TrekBBS. Don't know if he's been to TNZ but he's right and you know it.

 

[Amaris]

^ To be fair, it's not right to say "The Atheists" as if they're all a part of one organization. I mean, there are Christians who lie, cheat, steal and run people off the road, but you don't mix them in with all Christians. Some atheists have a problem with religion in every incarnation, but most atheists tend to live more of a "Let bygones be bygones" sort of arrangement. There are a number of militant few, and you will find them all across the spectrum, whether they be atheist or religious.

J.

Yes but he was talking about those on the TrekBBS. Don't know if he's been to TNZ but he's right and you know it.

I too am talking about this board. There are some very fair minded and considerate atheists here. Miss Chicken for one. The problem is when people get pushed, and yes both sides can do it. If you'll notice, most atheists on this board don't say anything until someone else starts something, and that includes TNZ. All it takes is a "you'll find out when God judges you", and off it goes.

Quite frankly, I agree with them on that. How would you like it if Christianity was a minor religion, and 80% of the people around you told you that eternal hell was your destination unless you believed in Allah and Mohammed as His prophet? You'd be telling people to dial it back, and quit getting in your face. You do it already, and you're part of a faith that is professed by 72% of the United States alone.

You know me, and I try to be as fair and even handed with people as possible, because I would like the same in return. Yet there are atheists who call me ignorant and deluded. Do I paint every atheist with the title of close minded bigot? No, because I realize the actual number is so small, it's not worth writing off an entire group of people.

J.