What hell is wrong with health care in the States!?!

[Naira]

Since my question has been apparently skipped over by the flood of posts, I'll ask again.
For those of you who did this or that surgery or stayed in a hospital for a week and paid little to nothing, I ask who paid for it?

I mean doctors and surgeons don't work for free and neither do their machines and tools...

Just curious...

I live in Greece. Here, a part of your income goes straight to the state. Also, employers pay money to the state for each of their employees.When I say state, I mean some sort of social security agency. Not everyone has the same agency (it depends on your job), but they are all public.

These money are used mainly (i) to be returned to you when you get old and cannot work anymore in the form of a monthly check and (ii) to pay for your health issues. Actually, your agency pays your health bills no matter how high they are, it is not necessary that you have contributed all the money in the past.

Since not everyone gets sick all the time, the money collected from all the people are enough to pay the bills of those who get sick.

There are differences among agencies. For example, public servants and university students can visit any doctor they like. Merchants have a list of doctors and they can choose among them. Still, everyone can visit a public hospital and be hospitalized.

People get most things for free. Some agencies don't cover things like cosmetic surgeries. Or you may have to pay something like 10% for some specific medication.

Plus, the employee's children and spouse (if non-working) c=receive the same treatment (except that the percentage for the medication may be a bit higher).

As for the wait-lines and such, there are some but not because of the health system. They are due to the Greek bureaucracy. It's not like if you go to one of the private institutions you can avoid those. There are aspects that can be greatly improved but generally, every time me or my family had to receive medical treatment it was almost 100% free and quite convenient.

I hope I described things efficiently.

 

[Augustus]

indeed, thank you

 

[RandyS]

My point is that by not investing in a true universal health care system we are creating a society in which the worth of a person's life is directly tied to his income.

Um, not to derail the thread, but life on Earth has ALWAYS been that way, no matter what nation you live in.

As for me, I guess I'm one of the lucky Americans. I've never had trouble getting health care, thanks largely to my mom's foresight. It's the one and only time (so far) where having cerebral palsy actually did me some good.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I hope the tongue means you know I was joking.

Quite possibly the funniest sentence in this thread, whether or not it's in context.

 

[RyanKCR]

Everything is wrong with health care in this country. And if you're lucky, you can be one of the insured who pays $45-100 per month in premiums to have the insurance company flat out refuse to pay for a dammed thing you need to have done.

I've not ever had anything refused, even having open-heart surgery in a children's hospital when I was 31.

 

[thestrangequark]

^You're lucky. Things don't always work out so well.

My point is that by not investing in a true universal health care system we are creating a society in which the worth of a person's life is directly tied to his income.

Um, not to derail the thread, but life on Earth has ALWAYS been that way, no matter what nation you live in.

It has been such for some cultures and societies, and not for others. Also, a history of such a system doesn't make it right, just familiar.

As for me, I guess I'm one of the lucky Americans. I've never had trouble getting health care, thanks largely to my mom's foresight. It's the one and only time (so far) where having cerebral palsy actually did me some good.

You are indeed very lucky.

 

[RyanKCR]

^You're lucky. Things don't always work out so well.

Not only that but I got the #2 pediatric cardiothoracic surgeon, too.

 

[Holdfast]

The US simply adopts a different health care model to some other countries.

I've seen the good & bad of enough health care systems to not bother judging which one is "better" than the rest. They ALL have certain fundamental flaws which create problems. It's up to a given nation to pick what flaws they want.

- The US decides it wants to deliver the highest possible quality healthcare to those who can afford it, and adequate quality healthcare to the majority of the population. It does that pretty well, albeit quite inefficiently. It also allows makes the poorest to jump through a lot of hoops and/or go into serious debt to get treatment.

- Universal health care systems rarely achieve the same maximal standard of healthcare, and while they have universal provision, that provision is also heavily rationed by either overt or insiduous means. So everyone may get healthcare, but it may not always be absolutely optimal healthcare. This is the situation in the UK, for instance.

- Hybrid systems can combine some of the best aspects of both models, but generally with increased inefficiency.

Which model a country chooses depends on its philosophy and legacy. The USA model rewards financial success and encourages people to take care of their own dependents. It's a capitalist model that does what it sets out to do. If and when the USA changes to another model, you'll find that will bring a whole other set of inequalities and unfairness.

Bottom line: Modern Healthcare is simply too expensive & resource-intensive to be delivered both universally and optimally by any system. Sorry, but it's true. Moral of the story? Don't get ill...

 

[T'Baio]

Well, what I have been told and the research I have already done, admittedly not enough to be an expert on the subject, reinforces my point that it is too good to be true. Stories of long lines and wait-listed procedures for months and months are what I have heard and read about.

There may be somewhat longer waits, but rarely for necessary procedures. Anything that is elective will of course be put off to make room for things that are necessary.

I have, unfortunately, extensive experience dealing with the health care system in Canada. I have never waited too long in a hospital...2 hours once in emerg...and everything I need to get done, gets done in due time. Nurses and other health care professionals have always been wonderful to me and I have always been confident I was getting the best of care.

I have read a lot of things with people complaining about wait times and their treatment. I often wonder if this comes from people in emerg because they have the sniffles. And I also remember, we're Canadian. Complaining is one of the things we do best.

 

[Gertch]

What sucks about all this is that I just want a good, steady job. It's odd that it's too much to ask for the moment.

J.

I know, you want to pay your own way. And relocating is probably out of the question.

 

[Amaris]

What sucks about all this is that I just want a good, steady job. It's odd that it's too much to ask for the moment.

J.

I know, you want to pay your own way. And relocating is probably out of the question.

I was raised with an indomitable work ethic. It's instilled in me very deeply.
Relocation is way up on the not possible scale.

J.

 

[Gertch]

What sucks about all this is that I just want a good, steady job. It's odd that it's too much to ask for the moment.

J.

I know, you want to pay your own way. And relocating is probably out of the question.

I was raised with an indomitable work ethic. It's instilled in me very deeply.
Relocation is way up on the not possible scale.

J.

All I can do is pray my friend.

 

[Trippy]

You know what - you two are 100% correct. I hope you would help me encourage all the enlightened progressive liberals to join you in Canada so they can enjoy the benefits of universal healthcare.

Heaven forbid there be liberals in the United States!



Oh ya, the majority of Americans voted for one

I hope the tongue means you know I was joking.

Yes...I was being facetious as well

As for the cost/effectiveness of the Canadian model of Universal Health Care is that yes, we pay taxes (the amount we pay is directly tied to income...those of us who make more pay more, those who make less pay less). Most employees pay a small amount per paycheck for whatever extended health care the employer offers (usually the basic drug/dental/eyeglasses).

Is our system perfect? Well, I think it works, but sure there's problems. We had doctors leaving in droves a few years back, because they had salary caps here (so many billing hours to the gov't per doctor/practice). I don't know what exactly has changed these past few years, but 'brain drain' has pretty much stopped.

I, or my son, can go into a walk-in clinic and wait for maybe 20min-40min to see a doctor (we go to the same clinic and we know the doctors in rotation there) for minor things (I only go when I know we need a 'scrip for an infection...like my poor beleaguered sinuses). To book an appointment for my doctor, it usually takes a week. I've only used the emergency room once for myself (broke a hand) and only waited 10 minutes to see the doctor, and another 10 for the x-ray.

I live in Ontario.

 

[RandyS]

It has been such for some cultures and societies, and not for others. Also, a history of such a system doesn't make it right, just familiar.

I wasn't attempting to imply that it's right. The opposite, in fact.

 

[Iasius]

Well, what I have been told and the research I have already done, admittedly not enough to be an expert on the subject, reinforces my point that it is too good to be true. Stories of long lines and wait-listed procedures for months and months are what I have heard and read about.

Well, first of all, if you ask people about their health care system the answers seem to be the same in many industrialized countries, ie it's not a disaster, but it could be a lot better:

As for wait times:

I'm not sure what to think about these. I suppose you could make a distinction between the NHS-like systems like in UK and Canada (single payer) and systems based on lots of individual insurance companies like Germany (with obligatory health insurance unless self employed) or the USA, but I'm not certain about the exact structure in AUS/NZ.

What I did find strange was that those countries with the shortest waiting times reported the highest dissatisfaction with their health care system.
Or maybe that's not so surprising after all.

(source for poll results)

 

[farmkid]

So people who are unable to work jobs with benefits don't deserve health care? Or should we require that all employers provide coverage for workers, both part-time and full-time?

Hey, slow down. I didn't know we required a 20 page detailed report with each post as to what should be covered and what not.

Many states have programs that cover low income/disability citizens. And in Mass the wonderfully caring Democrats force you to have healthcare or penalize you monetarily. I guess that makes it easier to buy it. You know, new math ... or something.

My point is that by not investing in a true universal health care system we are creating a society in which the worth of a person's life is directly tied to his income.
If you've ever had any experience with the feeble government aid offered to (some of) those with low incomes and disabilities you'd know that it's horrifyingly inadequate, inefficient, and unacceptable.

And you want to inflict that horrible care on everyone?

Seriously, though, my wife and children were covered by MediCal (Medicaid in California) while I was in graduate school. Your description of it is fairly accurate. It's run by overworked county social workers who just can't keep up, so it's slow. Few clinics will take it, so your options are limited. Otherwise, it's great.

The problem with medical care in the US is the cost. There are lots of suggestions about how to lower it, but they usually involve more insurance of some sort (make it mandatory, provide it by the state, etc.), but no one ever questions why costs are so high and how can it be brought down. We n need to try to fix the problem before instituting new programs. Here's my approach: look at where the money is going, decide what costs are actually necessary for providing patient care and what isn't. Then, work on solutions that reduce the costs that don't provide care. Things that don't provide care would be things like lawsuits, administrative costs at medical facilities and insurance companies, malpractice insurance, and the like. I suspect that the bulk of the money goes to insurance companies to cover their non-claim costs, hospital administrators and billing personnel, and lawsuits.

 

[shivkala]

The doctor prescribed diaper cream for my son to clear up a bad diaper rash. The insurance did not cover it and there was no generic. We could buy it out of pocket...for $297.00.

$297.00 for a tube of diaper cream! That's what's wrong with health care in the States!

 

[RobertVA]

Health care in the U.S. is screwed up, no doubt. There are many, many reasons.

1) Health Insurance is not required, the way it essentially is for you. For example, imagine car insurance. It's required to drive. Now, imagine if some people didn't have it, but everyone's car still got fixed. What's gonna happen to the rates of the people who pay? They'll go up. Strike 1

2) MOST health insurance comes from people's employers, so the cost is essentially invisible. This leads to the problem where people get the "I have to have the best" mentality. Now, obviously, some treatments are going to be expensive and you have to have them, but there are many times when cheaper ones will do but people insist on the "best" treatment possible since they don't really see the full cost of that. In other words, we're not frugal about it. To bring back the car analogy, imagine if EVERYONE wanted BMWs for all driving tasks, no matter their actual need. Strike 2

3) And strike 3 is that we're all freaking terrified of fixing EITHER #1 or #2! I could write another whole essay on that, but the short version is that there are fixes for both of those problems but the average citizen can only imagine the worst, dumbest fixes. So that's what we imagine and we crucify any politicians that suggest fixing either of these problems.

Just to clear things up about that auto insurance:

In many states an auto owner is not required to purchase insurance coverage that pays to repair or replace their car. The incentive is to purchase insurance to repair or replace the other person's property (vehicles, trees, fences, signs buildings) or other party's medical expensises. Even that coverage only applies when the driver with the insurance policy is at fault for the collision (careless driving, mechanical failure etc). Even this liability coverage isn't actually required, because a vehicle can still be operated with an annual "uninsured motorist" fee that contributes to a fund that pays the other driver if the uninsured has no property to seize after losing a law suit.

As a consequence, the government doesn't require vehicle owners to purchase coverage that repairs the vehicle if you run off the road and hit a tree. The government required insurance wont pay for your vehicle's repairs if you run a red light and hit another vehicle. It doesn't cover damages from vandalism or a tree crushing your vehicle in a storm.

If your vehicle serves as collateral for the loan you used to purchase it, the lender will probably have requirements for comprehensive and collision insurance coverage. such requirements only apply until the loan is paid off.

Also be aware that with the rising cost of vehicles over the last several decades, the required amount of liability coverage might not cover the full value of the other driver's vehicle(s).

Therefore, for many states in the US, the government required auto liability insurance isn't really comparable to health insurance (private group or "Universal").

 

[Rÿcher]

So, Mr. Alpha Romeo from Connecticut, I went to DHHS yesterday and told them about my $8,000. They told me I need to do a "spend down"; clothes, accessories, non-liquid assets, food, car repairs...

 

[Lookingglassman]

Because it is all about the money. The hospitals and insurance companies dont care about human life. All they care about is making bank and if thousands of people and kids die each year then so be it.