Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[LightningStorm]

Christie Golden was clever enough to change that in the relaunch books in order to make the books more attractive to dissapointed fans as well.

*emphasis mine

That's an assumption, unless Christie has specifically stated this. I think it more likely that she did that because she happened to be one of those fans who didn't like it and was in a position to change it, so did. Much like Andy Mangels and Michael Martin were in a position to change Trip's fate. While the wishes of the authors/editors might coincide with some of the fans, it's not necessarily always going to be the case, and we can't assume that they did what they did for the sole purpose of appeasing certain segments of Trek fandom.

 

[ronny]

Christie Golden was clever enough to change that in the relaunch books in order to make the books more attractive to dissapointed fans as well.

*emphasis mine

That's an assumption, unless Christie has specifically stated this. I think it more likely that she did that because she happened to be one of those fans who didn't like it and was in a position to change it, so did. Much like Andy Mangels and Michael Martin were in a position to change Trip's fate. While the wishes of the authors/editors might coincide with some of the fans, it's not necessarily always going to be the case, and we can't assume that they did what they did for the sole purpose of appeasing certain segments of Trek fandom.

I think a better comparison might be the breaking up of the Ezri Dax/Bashir relationship in DS9R. That was another one of those couples things that just seemed not right on the screen. I was glad to see both relationships ended.

 

[Thrawn]

As for the ratings, the Seven-Chakotay thing happened in the last episode so it couldn't affect the ratings for the whole season. But many fans, especially the fans of Janeway were angry and upset over it. Christie Golden was clever enough to change that in the relaunch books in order to make the books more attractive to dissapointed fans as well.

As for Christie Golden, I wasn't too fond of the relaunch books compared to masterpieces like "Marooned" and "The Murdered Sun" but there were some good plots in them and Mrs Golden did seem to have a love and affection for the characters.

As for the rest of the discussion here, it's actually your theories against mine. I state that I think that killing off Janeway will have a bad effect on the popularity of the books for reasons I've already stated while you are stating that you think it will have the opposite effect. It's like debating if selling the top scorer in a hockey team will affect the chances for the team to reach the play-offs or not. Only time will tell.

But if we put the speculation aside and goes for our personal feelings about it, I think that it's a bad move. It has definitely affected my interest and hopes for the relaunch books in the worst possible way.

I direct you to my following, earlier post:

(And just for the record: I'm not arguing that it IS a profitable move, either! I'm leaving analysis of decisions like that up to the people who do this for a living, and not presuming to judge. Though the only evidence I can find is amazon rankings, and those seem to show that it certainly hasn't been unprofitable, so if nothing else there's no evidence at all to support your point, aside from statistically insignificant anecdotes.)

I'm not arguing it'll be profitable, I'm arguing that we don't know one way or the other. Despite your continued insistence that this is a Bad Idea, you don't have any evidence to support that claim. And the only evidence I can find that could reasonably point either way - the amazon rankings - point against you. But even that is pretty useless. All I was asking you to do was put aside speculation, as you put it; if you read this whole thread, you'll notice I never speculated at all. I just told you there was no reason to believe your speculation, which is true.

And, for the record, Golden changing the Seven/Chakotay thing so quickly instantly pissed me off; it seemed like it was written to serve her own personal opinions rather than the good of the story, and was tossed off without any emotional depth at all. It seemed cheap and unearned. So, once AGAIN, just because you like something doesn't mean everyone else does, fans or otherwise; stop making that assumption!

 

[Thrawn]

Christie Golden was clever enough to change that in the relaunch books in order to make the books more attractive to dissapointed fans as well.

*emphasis mine

That's an assumption, unless Christie has specifically stated this. I think it more likely that she did that because she happened to be one of those fans who didn't like it and was in a position to change it, so did. Much like Andy Mangels and Michael Martin were in a position to change Trip's fate. While the wishes of the authors/editors might coincide with some of the fans, it's not necessarily always going to be the case, and we can't assume that they did what they did for the sole purpose of appeasing certain segments of Trek fandom.

I think a better comparison might be the breaking up of the Ezri Dax/Bashir relationship in DS9R. That was another one of those couples things that just seemed not right on the screen. I was glad to see both relationships ended.

Yes, but the Ezri/Bashir relationship went through complicated twists and turns over the course of several novels before those characters drifted apart; Seven and Chakotay was ended in like 4 paragraphs and then ignored.

Sure, I didn't think either relationship worked, but there's a difference between using that for story opportunities (exploring how it didn't work) and just deciding it was lame and resetting abruptly.

 

[Trent Roman]

Sorry that I was unclear, my comment was still partly in response to Lynx original comment that it would make many fans happy to resurrect her in "Full Circle", hence the next book comment, since Full Circle is the next/first Voyager book after Janeway's death.

Ah, context. Slippery thing that is. Of course, it still wouldn't be the next book: if Janeway can die in a TNG novel, there's no reason she has to wait for a VOY novel to be resurrected.

And, for the record, Golden changing the Seven/Chakotay thing so quickly instantly pissed me off; it seemed like it was written to serve her own personal opinions rather than the good of the story, and was tossed off without any emotional depth at all. It seemed cheap and unearned. So, once AGAIN, just because you like something doesn't mean everyone else does, fans or otherwise; stop making that assumption!

I agree with this; I think I actually complained about it when the book first came out (amongst numerous other things). Between that, the sheer speed with which Tuvok was cured (before they even reached Earth, as I recall), the not-even-debated pardon for the Maquis, the lack of review of the crew's actions generally, and the spontaneous promotion ceremony, it seemed like the books were eager to get rid of the baggage left at the end of the series as fast as possible so they could conduct their own silly plotlines (Secret Agent Libby! Holosama! OMG!) unimpeded by the show's history. I generally think all these things should have happened eventually (C7 is a good example of a coupling tossed together just for the sake of having a coupling), but the ease with which everything was skimmed over just seemed lazy. And, of course, all the Janeway/Chakotay ship'ness is Golden's writings leaves little question as to why...

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

...the ease with which everything was skimmed over just seemed lazy.

Yeah. This was my overwhelming first impression of Homecoming, too.

 

[ClayinCA]

So will you please stop arguing that killing off Janeway isn't going to be a profitable move? You have insufficient evidence. Period. End. Of. Discussion.

"End of Discussion"? Oh, I bet not....

But the opinion that Janeway should remain dead is also an opinion and nothing more.

Well, no, it's more than an opinion; it's an editorial decision.

One that you're not going to change here.

Thank you, William Leisner. Just for that, I'm buying two copies of your next book (three if there's a reference to Dead Janeway anywhere in it).

My opinion is, if you really want to bring her back there has to be a VERY good reason for it and a VERY good way to accomplish this. Q snapping his fingers is not a good way to do this, for example.

Exactly! I remember many, many years ago, when I was a lad and dinosaurs walked the earth, the gap between "The Best of Both Worlds" parts one and two, when many fans seriously believed that Picard would be restored from Borghood to humanity by Q. And these people really had no idea what terrible storytelling that would have been. Janeway being resurrected at this point wouldn't be any better.

Again - you have LITERALLY NO EVIDENCE that this is costing them sales. NONE. Your "feeling" does not count as evidence!

Bottom line: just because you think something might be true, or have your doubts, or have a feeling, it *DOES NOT MEAN A DAMN THING*. There is no evidence that this is costing them sales - NONE.

If you want to talk about why you personally are unhappy with the story, feel free, and again I'll say I've enjoyed that conversation; you have a point of view I don't see often. But you trying to argue that this is a Bad Creative Decision is demonstrating nothing except a clear ignorance of statistical reality.

See, Thrawn, I told you it wasn't going to be over so easily...

 

[Brendan Moody]

...the ease with which everything was skimmed over just seemed lazy.

Yeah. This was my overwhelming first impression of Homecoming, too.

I dislike Golden's relaunch novels as much as the next cool kid, for the reasons outlined here and more but I'm not comfortable using the word "lazy," which (whether this is the intention or not) suggests a writer consciously taking an easy and cheap approach despite knowing that she should do better. I can readily imagine Golden believing that the approach she took was best; however much I disagree with that approach, I'd rather not implicitly attack her professionalism.

 

[Therin of Andor]

As for the ratings, the Seven-Chakotay thing happened in the last episode so it couldn't affect the ratings for the whole season. But many fans, especially the fans of Janeway were angry and upset over it.

Why, 'cos Janeway is destined to love Chakotay and be with him forever, now that Mark has remarried and the puppies are all grown?

I really liked the Chakotay/Seven pairing, but there should have been some hints seeded into the last season. There were a few episodes where they could have done little things that would have helped make Chakotay... a bit more memorable?

 

[William Leisner]

There were a few episodes where they could have done little things that would have helped make Chakotay... a bit more memorable?

If you can call 170+ episodes "a few"...

 

[ronny]

There were a few episodes where they could have done little things that would have helped make Chakotay... a bit more memorable?

If you can call 170+ episodes "a few"...

In 170+ epsisodes I can remember one line of dialogue Chakotay said. I don't remember the episode but it's after they discover Seska was a Cardassian.

To Tuvok: You were working for Janeway, Seska was working for the Cardassians, was anybody on that ship working for me?

The same thing for me with just about everybody on Voyager. So when I find the Voyager books lacking I tend to chalk it up to the writers and editors doing the best with what that had to work with.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think a better comparison might be the breaking up of the Ezri Dax/Bashir relationship in DS9R. That was another one of those couples things that just seemed not right on the screen.

Off topic, but I hasten to disagree. That opening scene with them as a couple really came out of left field, but linked by to the Bashir/Jadzia flirtations of Episode 1 and reminded us how far Bashir had come in seven years.

I'm disappointed the novels eventually dissolved this pairing, but I can live with it.

That VOY's writers tried to emulate it in "Endgame" was disappointing, but C/7 wasn't such an unbelievable pairing either.

If you can call 170+ episodes "a few"...

My point exactly.

 

[Trent Roman]

I dislike Golden's relaunch novels as much as the next cool kid, for the reasons outlined here and more but I'm not comfortable using the word "lazy," which (whether this is the intention or not) suggests a writer consciously taking an easy and cheap approach despite knowing that she should do better.

I suppose "lazy" is something one does tends to associate more with people than texts, though I'm not sure what to use instead. Facile? Quick and superficial, anyway.

I really liked the Chakotay/Seven pairing, but there should have been some hints seeded into the last season.

There was that one (bad) episode where Seven plays at dating with a holographic Chakotay.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JD]

Huh, I actually liked Ezri and Julian together. I just thought that they had personalities that matched pretty well, and that it was fun given much Bashir chased Jadzia in the beginning of the show. I was actually kinda disapointed that they broke them up

 

[kimc]

So far I've yet to hear of one Janeway fan that was touched by her death. In that respect Peter David failed in his execution.

So you haven't noticed what lots of us have been saying for years?

I'm a Janeway fan and I was distressed and moved by the events of her death in "Before Dishonor", and the connection she made with Seven near the end. And I found Suzie Q to be frustratingly smug about it all, which is dead-on with her ST character. And I can't wait for "Full Circle", which is more than I could say for the "Spirit Walk" duology, which still sits on my "to read" pile.

Or do I not count as a Janeway fan 'cos I rarely visit the VOY board, or 'cos I liked PAD's novel?

Wow - now there's some assumptions...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Wow - now there's some assumptions...

I'm not assuming anything. I honestly don't know. I'm puzzled. It was you who said, "I've yet to hear of one Janeway fan that was touched by her death. In that respect Peter David failed in his execution", and yet you've been here often enough that you must know you were incorrect.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If you think Before Dishonor annoyed Lynx just wait till she reads A Singular Destiny

 

[Thrawn]

If you think Before Dishonor annoyed Lynx just wait till she reads A Singular Destiny

I was going to post something about this...

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If you think Before Dishonor annoyed Lynx just wait till she reads A Singular Destiny

I was going to post something about this...

Yeah I figure Lynx will go nuclear if she finds out what is mentioned in that book. We should probably hide in a bomb shelter some where.

 

[Turtletrekker]

If you think Before Dishonor annoyed Lynx just wait till she reads A Singular Destiny

I was going to post something about this...

Yeah I figure Lynx will go nuclear if she finds out what is mentioned in that book. We should probably hide in a bomb shelter some where.

I'm sure that I don't really have to say this because I believe that most of the posters here are civil enough to obey the rules about such things, but just out of an over-abundance of caution, I'm gonna ask...

NO! SPOILERS! PLEASE!

Thank you.

They're already talking about this in the thread (using spoiler coding) for that book.