Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Thrawn]

The Pocket editors and authors do not take their cues from this or any other internet board. It's a fun place to interact, but that's about it. Even if we were a representative sample, we have no consensus in our opinions.

I'm generally happy with how the Janeway death was handled. It gave more "oomph" to Before Dishonor, and it gave her a fitting end battling against her nemesis. If the people at Pocket decide to do a story with Janeway in it that is set after Before Dishonor, they do not have to write a resurrection story. The current continuity between books is a choice, not an obligation.

"Killed? Who was killed? Janeway? Never happened!" (end Seinfeld mode)

Theoretically, yes, but in practice that hasn't happened since they decided to put the Shatnerverse in its own continuity, with the single exception of the Crucible trilogy (as far as I can remember, anyway). Especially now that they've brought all the post-Nemesis series together, there's no way that they'd ignore an event in one of them when writing the others.

 

[Thrawn]

"In this book, they kill off a major character." Such word of mouth can sell books. Lots of them. It's a double edged sword, of course, since it may cause some fans to resolve never to read any books.

In fact, if you do a search on amazon.com for "Star Trek" in the books section, you get mostly what you'd expect - the past 6 months of novels, minus Errand Of Fury 3 - but the 12th result is Before Dishonor.

This is admittedly unscientific and not precise, but it means that if you're looking for Star Trek books, amazon predicts based on past patterns that you're more likely to want Before Dishonor than any of the books published just before or for about 7 months afterwards...which has to mean that it sold very well.

And, for that matter, Full Circle is listed ahead of Over A Torrent Sea, Mere Anarchy, and the aforementioned Errand Of Fury 3, meaning it's one of the most pre-ordered upcoming novels.

Certainly doesn't seem like it's ruining sales yet!

 

[ClayinCA]

Lynx, this is twice in the same day I've agreed with you. Do we see a trend?

Hmmm.......are you developing bad habits?

Developing?? Mercy me, no...I've already got quite a large collection of bad habits!

Honestly, it would be better if "Full Circle" would bring Janeway back. That would at least make many fans happy.

And there's that particular bad habit broken - ! Nope, don't agree with you at all about this - whatever you think about the decision to kill Janeway (and it's not exactly unclear what you do think about it! ), to bring her back at this point would only cheapen her death (or cheapen it further, if you take the view that her death was a mistake - which I don't) and make a mockery of her sacrifice. Moreover, too many resurrections run the risk of making death itself hollow and irrelevant at best, and completely unbelievable at worst. This sort of thing has already happened in comic books - there used to be a saying that the only characters ever to die and stay dead were Bucky (Captain America's partner) and Spider-Man's Uncle Ben. Well, Bucky's back now, and although it was well done, it's gotten to the point that when DC Comics killed Batman recently, the prevailing reaction was, "Ehh. He'll be back." And that's wrong. If you care about a character, his or her death should mean something.

Apparently, there's going to be a Red Janeway and a Blue Janeway in the next book....

Is...is that a Superman joke?? If so, oh, Dayton, you've made me so happy...!

It would make a lot very angry, since there's been an awful lot of miracle resurrection in ST... Someone who stays dead would be... unique!

In that case, I guess that one more or less wouldn't matter.

Seriously?!? That's your argument??

As for Janeway, they shouldn't have killed her off in the first place.

If I may channel my inner third-grader for a moment...says you.

Yes, some would be p***ed off by it. But I think that most Voyager fans would be happy to see Janeway back and since this is about Voyager I do think it would matter.

Yeah, we know you think that. But that's your opinion, based on, well...your opinion. And nothing else. Not saying your opinion isn't valid, but it alone is no basis for an argument running pages and pages of forum space.

 

[KRAD]

I assume there is a group of readers out there that buy everything Star Trek, no matter how badly or well written it is.

Based on the wild fluctuations in sales among the various Trek books, that group is very small and insignificant. Almost as small and insignificant a percentage of the reader base as people who post on Internet bulletin boards, in fact. If the number of people who bought every Trek book regardless was of any relevant size, all Trek books would sell the same. But they really really really don't.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Apparently, there's going to be a Red Janeway and a Blue Janeway in the next book....

What, no Cyborg Janeway, Coffee Girl, Neutronium Lass and The Last Daughter of Voyager? Who is the real Janeway? More importantly, does anybody really care?

 

[Ktrek]

Based on the wild fluctuations in sales among the various Trek books, that group is very small and insignificant. Almost as small and insignificant a percentage of the reader base as people who post on Internet bulletin boards, in fact.

I resent that you just called me insignificant!

Kevin

 

[Lynx]

And there's that particular bad habit broken - ! Nope, don't agree with you at all about this - whatever you think about the decision to kill Janeway (and it's not exactly unclear what you do think about it! ), to bring her back at this point would only cheapen her death (or cheapen it further, if you take the view that her death was a mistake - which I don't) and make a mockery of her sacrifice. Moreover, too many resurrections run the risk of making death itself hollow and irrelevant at best, and completely unbelievable at worst. This sort of thing has already happened in comic books - there used to be a saying that the only characters ever to die and stay dead were Bucky (Captain America's partner) and Spider-Man's Uncle Ben. Well, Bucky's back now, and although it was well done, it's gotten to the point that when DC Comics killed Batman recently, the prevailing reaction was, "Ehh. He'll be back." And that's wrong. If you care about a character, his or her death should mean something.

Perhaps. But Janeway's death was unnecessary and can't be mockered more than it already is.

In that case, I guess that one more or less wouldn't matter.

Seriously?!? That's your argument??

Not exactly, but there seem to be some characters who have been brought back and since I do see Janeway as an essential part of future Voyager stories, I do think that it would be appropriate to bring her back.

Yes, some would be p***ed off by it. But I think that most Voyager fans would be happy to see Janeway back and since this is about Voyager I do think it would matter.

Yeah, we know you think that. But that's your opinion, based on, well...your opinion. And nothing else. Not saying your opinion isn't valid, but it alone is no basis for an argument running pages and pages of forum space.

But the opinion that Janeway should remain dead is also an opinion and nothing more. We don't know how many people there are who support that possibility either. It seems to me that most of those who support it here are casual fans of all the Trek series, not Voyager fans in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get.

I would also like to inform you that Janeway's death has been discussed on other forums, most notably the startrek.com forum and The Voyager Conspiracy forum. Most of the ardent Janeway fans on those forums dislike that she's been killed off but seem to be sure that Janeway will be brought back to life by Q in an upcoming book. It will be interesting to see their reaction when they find out that their favorite is gone for good.

 

[Thrawn]

I would also like to inform you that Janeway's death has been discussed on other forums, most notably the startrek.com forum and The Voyager Conspiracy forum. Most of the ardent Janeway fans on those forums dislike that she's been killed off but seem to be sure that Janeway will be brought back to life by Q in an upcoming book. It will be interesting to see their reaction when they find out that their favorite is gone for good.

I bet they'll be pissed as hell.

Then all, what, 40 of them? Maybe 50? Won't buy the next book.

Or maybe some of them will like it, and they will buy the next book, even though they're pissed Janeway is dead.

So the total percentage of sales affected will be... what, about 0.002%?

I bet the editors are quaking in their boots...

But the opinion that Janeway should remain dead is also an opinion and nothing more. We don't know how many people there are who support that possibility either. It seems to me that most of those who support it here are casual fans of all the Trek series, not Voyager fans in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get.

Yeah, but all those casual fans that are now interested are new sales in the PLUS column, so every single one of these"not Voyager fans in the first place" are increasing the sales numbers for your supposed disaster of a release. A sale is a sale, regardless of how much the buyer is a True Fan or whatever.

It works both ways, Lynx... and ultimately, neither number makes a damn bit of difference anyway, since we're STILL arguing over tiny fractions of tiny fractions of sales!

So will you please stop arguing that killing off Janeway isn't going to be a profitable move? You have insufficient evidence. Period. End. Of. Discussion.

(And just for the record: I'm not arguing that it IS a profitable move, either! I'm leaving analysis of decisions like that up to the people who do this for a living, and not presuming to judge. Though the only evidence I can find is amazon rankings, and those seem to show that it certainly hasn't been unprofitable, so if nothing else there's no evidence at all to support your point, aside from statistically insignificant anecdotes.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

I would also like to inform you that Janeway's death has been discussed on other forums, most notably the startrek.com forum and The Voyager Conspiracy forum. Most of the ardent Janeway fans on those forums dislike that she's been killed off but seem to be sure that Janeway will be brought back to life by Q in an upcoming book. It will be interesting to see their reaction when they find out that their favorite is gone for good.

IIRC, many from those groups have supposedly boasted that they choose to "never" read licensed tie-ins! So it won't make a difference to them either way.

It seems to me that most of those who support it here are casual fans of all the Trek series, not Voyager fans in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get.

Yeah, I guess that makes me a "casual fan"?????????????

 

[William Leisner]

But the opinion that Janeway should remain dead is also an opinion and nothing more.

Well, no, it's more than an opinion; it's an editorial decision.

One that you're not going to change here.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

But the opinion that Janeway should remain dead is also an opinion and nothing more.

Well, no, it's more than an opinion; it's an editorial decision.

One that you're not going to change here.

That is the position at the moment. I understand that there are no plans to bring Janeway back in the near future but who knows? In a few years positions may change.

I can live very easily with it that Janeway is dead although I disagree with the decision to kill her off. Resurrection story are a dangerous territory. My opinion is, if you really want to bring her back there has to be a VERY good reason for it and a VERY good way to accomplish this. Q snapping his fingers is not a good way to do this, for example.

 

[Steve Roby]

I assume there is a group of readers out there that buy everything Star Trek, no matter how badly or well written it is.

You assume incorrectly. Even here, which is where many of the most hardcore Trek book fans congregate, most participants don't buy every Trek book. I do, for a variety of reasons, but as to the matter of "how badly or well written it is," this is professionally written and edited and vetted stuff, not fanfic. There are certain writers whose styles I don't like, but a lot of people I often agree with really like them. Just look at the Fire Ship discussion.

Shouldn't there be an attempt to expand the number of readers? And wouldn't that attempt require that the books appeal to the new or infrequent buyers?

Of course, but it's hard to do at a time when Star Trek has been declining in popularity. Sure, there's a new movie coming, but that's not necessarily going to have any kind of effect on Voyager novels, or many of the other Trek book lines. So what can you do to get attention? Do something the TV series could never do. Like, I dunno, killing off a major character. That should get a bit more attention than another "hey, it's another story of the Voyager crew trying to get back to Earth from the Delta Quadrant!"

If/when the Voyager Relaunch books fail to sell as well as they hope, will the editors/writers realize that they might have, themselves, added to the problem by not finding a way to reunite the crew and captain in a true Voyager "relaunch"?

Look, the TV series itself, and a movie, caused a lot of problems for anyone who wants to depict the events that come after the ship returns home. The whole point of the show was to get back to Earth. That's been done. Anything that comes next has to be profoundly different from what Voyager fans saw and enjoyed in TV because the status quo has been destroyed. Making a Janeway an admiral is a complicating factor, too. There's no going back to the happy gang all working together on the ship, not least because they didn't all want to be there. One way or another, a lot of those characters are going to want to go their own directions. For that matter, Starfleet is going to want to do different things with those people. Even after the fleet's losses in the Dominion War, there may well be some ex-Maquis on the ship that Starfleet just doesn't want. There are going to be some Starfleet personnel who will just want to stay away from ship-based service for a long time.

All of that means that the editors and writers working on a "true Voyager relaunch" have to make a lot of decisions if they're going to be true to the series, its characters, and basic believability. And no way are all Voyager fans going to have the same set of expectations about what those decisions should be. Not to mention people like me, who didn't care much for the TV series but who read the books because they're often better (and more thoughtfully) written than the TV episodes. Not that I liked the four Golden relaunch books, but still.

 

[Lynx]

I would also like to inform you that Janeway's death has been discussed on other forums, most notably the startrek.com forum and The Voyager Conspiracy forum. Most of the ardent Janeway fans on those forums dislike that she's been killed off but seem to be sure that Janeway will be brought back to life by Q in an upcoming book. It will be interesting to see their reaction when they find out that their favorite is gone for good.

I bet they'll be pissed as hell.

Then all, what, 40 of them? Maybe 50? Won't buy the next book.

Or maybe some of them will like it, and they will buy the next book, even though they're pissed Janeway is dead.

So the total percentage of sales affected will be... what, about 0.002%?

I bet the editors are quaking in their boots...

But the opinion that Janeway should remain dead is also an opinion and nothing more. We don't know how many people there are who support that possibility either. It seems to me that most of those who support it here are casual fans of all the Trek series, not Voyager fans in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get.

Yeah, but all those casual fans that are now interested are new sales in the PLUS column, so every single one of these"not Voyager fans in the first place" are increasing the sales numbers for your supposed disaster of a release. A sale is a sale, regardless of how much the buyer is a True Fan or whatever.

It works both ways, Lynx... and ultimately, neither number makes a damn bit of difference anyway, since we're STILL arguing over tiny fractions of tiny fractions of sales!

So will you please stop arguing that killing off Janeway isn't going to be a profitable move? You have insufficient evidence. Period. End. Of. Discussion.

(And just for the record: I'm not arguing that it IS a profitable move, either! I'm leaving analysis of decisions like that up to the people who do this for a living, and not presuming to judge. Though the only evidence I can find is amazon rankings, and those seem to show that it certainly hasn't been unprofitable, so if nothing else there's no evidence at all to support your point, aside from statistically insignificant anecdotes.)

First of all, I do think that it's a bit unfair to simply dismiss those Janeway fans as some small group of fanatics who have no importance at all. Don't forget the uproar over the Seven-Chakotay thing.

Second, wouldn't it be better if those fans who are not reading the books would start buying them and that the fans who are buying the books continue to do so?

Third, there are many examples in many areas when attempts to attract a "broader audience" have alienated the loyal fans. That has proved to be disastrous in the long run since the "broader audience" aren't always as loyal as the true fans.

Fourth, Voyager is together with "Enterprise" the series which have the smallest fanbase and the Voyager fanbase is also very split-up when it comes to liking different periods of the show. I do have a feeling that the situation is the same for the Voyager books as well. It could actually be a good idea to try to make the books attractive to as many Voyager fans as possible instead of alienating them.

I also have my doubts about the possibility to attract new loyal Voyager fans in this case. Let's assume that we have a person who recently has become a Voyager fan after watching a re-run of the series. Will this person start buying the Voyager books when he/she finds out that most of the characters are missing and the main character is killed off?

 

[Defcon]

^ I don't know, I can imagine that even people who don't care much about Janeway as a character one way or the other would be put off by the decision to kill a character only to resurrect her in the next book.

It would hardly be the next book. Janeway was killed in 2007, and we've already been told that Full Circle and Unworthy (or any other book, since, after all, one doesn't need a VOY novel to make majors changes to the VOY cast) won't be bringing her back, so the earliest Janeway could make a return would be several years after her apparent death.

Sorry that I was unclear, my comment was still partly in response to Lynx original comment that it would make many fans happy to resurrect her in "Full Circle", hence the next book comment, since Full Circle is the next/first Voyager book after Janeway's death.

 

[Thrawn]

First of all, I do think that it's a bit unfair to simply dismiss those Janeway fans as some small group of fanatics who have no importance at all. Don't forget the uproar over the Seven-Chakotay thing.

And did that uproar noticeably affect TV ratings? No!

Second, wouldn't it be better if those fans who are not reading the books would start buying them and that the fans who are buying the books continue to do so?

You have NO EVIDENCE that this isn't happening ANYWAY.

Third, there are many examples in many areas when attempts to attract a "broader audience" have alienated the loyal fans. That has proved to be disastrous in the long run since the "broader audience" aren't always as loyal as the true fans.

There are many examples where it goes the other way. Your point?

Fourth, Voyager is together with "Enterprise" the series which have the smallest fanbase and the Voyager fanbase is also very split-up when it comes to liking different periods of the show. I do have a feeling that the situation is the same for the Voyager books as well. It could actually be a good idea to try to make the books attractive to as many Voyager fans as possible instead of alienating them.

These books are more attractive to many people too - no matter what decision you make, some people don't like it, and some people do. Again - you have LITERALLY NO EVIDENCE that this is costing them sales. NONE. Your "feeling" does not count as evidence!

I also have my doubts about the possibility to attract new loyal Voyager fans in this case. Let's assume that we have a person who recently has become a Voyager fan after watching a re-run of the series. Will this person start buying the Voyager books when he/she finds out that most of the characters are missing and the main character is killed off?

Maybe they'll be interested to see how the crew fragments and moves on after getting home? That seems like a great idea for a story!

Bottom line: just because you think something might be true, or have your doubts, or have a feeling, it *DOES NOT MEAN A DAMN THING*. There is no evidence that this is costing them sales - NONE.

If you want to talk about why you personally are unhappy with the story, feel free, and again I'll say I've enjoyed that conversation; you have a point of view I don't see often. But you trying to argue that this is a Bad Creative Decision is demonstrating nothing except a clear ignorance of statistical reality.

 

[Ktrek]

I also have my doubts about the possibility to attract new loyal Voyager fans in this case. Let's assume that we have a person who recently has become a Voyager fan after watching a re-run of the series. Will this person start buying the Voyager books when he/she finds out that most of the characters are missing and the main character is killed off?

In order to appease you the only way that could be done would be to still be releasing books set during the series. There is nothing to preclude and author pitching such a story but I doubt it would happen. The direction things are moving now is far more interesting. Once the ship got back home that was it for the original crew. It would have been unrealistic to keep the same crew and send them right out on another mission. In cannon Janeway was promoted to Admiral. To place her back on the ship would have not only illogical but stupid. The only thing that makes sense at this point is to move forward not backwards and that's what I believe you want.

Kevin

 

[William Leisner]

First of all, I do think that it's a bit unfair to simply dismiss those Janeway fans as some small group of fanatics who have no importance at all. Don't forget the uproar over the Seven-Chakotay thing.

Oh, Lord, yes. Who could forget the infamous uproar over the Seven-Chakotay thing? Why, that event is forever burned in our collective memory!

Once again, history offers us a valuable lesson that if a... thing... happens, there might be an uproar, which will then lead to... um... uh...

 

[Thrawn]

I also have my doubts about the possibility to attract new loyal Voyager fans in this case. Let's assume that we have a person who recently has become a Voyager fan after watching a re-run of the series. Will this person start buying the Voyager books when he/she finds out that most of the characters are missing and the main character is killed off?

In order to appease you the only way that could be done would be to still be releasing books set during the series. There is nothing to preclude and author pitching such a story but I doubt it would happen. The direction things are moving now is far more interesting. Once the ship got back home that was it for the original crew. It would have been unrealistic to keep the same crew and send them right out on another mission. In cannon Janeway was promoted to Admiral. To place her back on the ship would have not only illogical but stupid. The only thing that makes sense at this point is to move forward not backwards and that's what I believe you want.

Kevin

And, in all fairness, they did just recently release the String Theory trilogy, which did take place during the show. So there's no reason to expect we'll never get any more books set in that time, just that it'll be rare.

 

[JD]

I also have my doubts about the possibility to attract new loyal Voyager fans in this case. Let's assume that we have a person who recently has become a Voyager fan after watching a re-run of the series. Will this person start buying the Voyager books when he/she finds out that most of the characters are missing and the main character is killed off?

Maybe they'll be interested to see how the crew fragments and moves on after getting home? That seems like a great idea for a story!

Well, I can already say that this is the case with me. Due to the bad reviews on here I didn't actually read the books, but I did read about all of the characters lives post-series on Memory Beta a while back. And I wouldn't be suprised if there were alot of people like me, who felt the way I did but actually read the books.
IMO having the crew leave the ship really was the best way to go with the series, it makes sense given what all of the characters went through, and it also keeps the books from becoming just another ship based Star Trek series. Again this is all my own opinion based entirely on how I feel about the characters, and what I've read here.

 

[Lynx]

First of all, I do think that it's a bit unfair to simply dismiss those Janeway fans as some small group of fanatics who have no importance at all. Don't forget the uproar over the Seven-Chakotay thing.

And did that uproar noticeably affect TV ratings? No!

Second, wouldn't it be better if those fans who are not reading the books would start buying them and that the fans who are buying the books continue to do so?

You have NO EVIDENCE that this isn't happening ANYWAY.

There are many examples where it goes the other way. Your point?

Fourth, Voyager is together with "Enterprise" the series which have the smallest fanbase and the Voyager fanbase is also very split-up when it comes to liking different periods of the show. I do have a feeling that the situation is the same for the Voyager books as well. It could actually be a good idea to try to make the books attractive to as many Voyager fans as possible instead of alienating them.

These books are more attractive to many people too - no matter what decision you make, some people don't like it, and some people do. Again - you have LITERALLY NO EVIDENCE that this is costing them sales. NONE. Your "feeling" does not count as evidence!

I also have my doubts about the possibility to attract new loyal Voyager fans in this case. Let's assume that we have a person who recently has become a Voyager fan after watching a re-run of the series. Will this person start buying the Voyager books when he/she finds out that most of the characters are missing and the main character is killed off?

Maybe they'll be interested to see how the crew fragments and moves on after getting home? That seems like a great idea for a story!

Bottom line: just because you think something might be true, or have your doubts, or have a feeling, it *DOES NOT MEAN A DAMN THING*. There is no evidence that this is costing them sales - NONE.

If you want to talk about why you personally are unhappy with the story, feel free, and again I'll say I've enjoyed that conversation; you have a point of view I don't see often. But you trying to argue that this is a Bad Creative Decision is demonstrating nothing except a clear ignorance of statistical reality.

As for the ratings, the Seven-Chakotay thing happened in the last episode so it couldn't affect the ratings for the whole season. But many fans, especially the fans of Janeway were angry and upset over it. Christie Golden was clever enough to change that in the relaunch books in order to make the books more attractive to dissapointed fans as well.

As for Christie Golden, I wasn't too fond of the relaunch books compared to masterpieces like "Marooned" and "The Murdered Sun" but there were some good plots in them and Mrs Golden did seem to have a love and affection for the characters.

As for the rest of the discussion here, it's actually your theories against mine. I state that I think that killing off Janeway will have a bad effect on the popularity of the books for reasons I've already stated while you are stating that you think it will have the opposite effect. It's like debating if selling the top scorer in a hockey team will affect the chances for the team to reach the play-offs or not. Only time will tell.

But if we put the speculation aside and goes for our personal feelings about it, I think that it's a bad move. It has definitely affected my interest and hopes for the relaunch books in the worst possible way.