That is a false representation of fundamental Christianity. Either you knew that or was very ill-informed. Yes we are not good enough on our own to be accepted by God. That is why Christ paid our sin debt. Once you acknowldge that and trust in Christ for that, then you are a Christian. Anything beyond that may be viewed differently but is not a basis for salvation. That is why I may disagree with someone not recognizing that the gifts of the Spirit are active today but agree they are a Christian if they follow the above I mentioned about Christ and His death and Resurrection. It all comes back to Christ and His death.
* shrugs * It may be that I am indeed misinformed, as I know that not all fundamentalists are extreme in their interpretations. As I said, my church never heavily emphasized some of the same ideas, such as hell and punishment, because the Presbyterian doctrine isn't like that. The problem I see with the notion of Christ's sacrifice is, it's only relevant to a sinful world. The fact that the world and the people in it are less than perfect provides a reason for Christ to do what he did, but why would God make the world that way? I've yet to hear a very convincing answer to that, as simply citing free will and choice aren't enough, nor is it sensible to claim that we "need" saving because God views us as being worthless. That's just plain silly to me, and not consistent with a lot of the stuff I've read in the Bible over the years. And the sets of laws in the OT contain a very similar mechanic for how to atone for sin, so that God's people can set themselves straight when they screw up. As
Nerys suggested, even if God operates on a higher level of "good" by nature of His being, that doesn't mean we aren't given value ourselves.
Well, keeping the off topic ness to a minimum
Here is a rough and quick answer.
Yes I guess you can say that salvation and forgiveness are the same thing in some ways. God forgives our sins, so we can be saved or receive salvation. Yeah I guess it is kind of the same.
God didn't create man sinless, as I understand. He sent us here to choose, to learn and to progress and experience. He created Adam and Eve, who lived in a perfect world, but choose to disobey and then they "fell", fulfilling the purposes of God. So man became sinful and everyone since Adam and Eve has committed sins and since God loves us and wants us to learn and return to him, he provided a Savior that if we repent we could receive salvation.
So basically the short answer to your question is that God didn't make us sinless because it would have removed our agency. He gives us the ability to choose between right and wrong, but is also willing to forgive when we do wrong, because he knew we would at least occasionally mess up.
make sense?
I think the problem for many non-Christians with the story in Genesis is, the doctrine of original sin which has evolved in Christianity (and is stronger in some sects than others) assumes that Adam and Eve were punished for making an
informed choice, the way you or I would be if we chose to do something stupid or wrong and got caught for it. But the details given in the Bible, both in their actions and in how God made the garden, strongly imply that it couldn't have been an informed choice. And thus God's "discipline" makes little to no sense.
I think that Unicron said exactly this: it doesn't matter how good you are, you are still not good enough for God. So (I infer) salvation/forgiveness is all upon God and his mercy (and not his justice, because by justice we are all guilty and deserve to be punished).
Yes, that is how I said it. This sort of God can hardly seem just, since all of the factors are against us. Choice can't give us responsibility, because God's already made up His mind. And as I said above, this is not the case in many sections of the Bible - the OT is pretty clear on the basic notion that God, being good, values the good things His people do and rewards them accordingly. Job's one such book I can think of off the top of my head, but there are plenty of examples. And the woman Jesus saved from being stoned for adultery, and told to embrace the good she was capable of ("go and sin no more.")
Bottom line for me is, if God made me in His image and is supposedly an embodiment of good, if He is our standard in that regard (or at least our
ideal standard), then it follows that He should respect the good I've done in life, and that which I've tried to do. That should ultimately matter a lot more than how much I doubt or believe, if those things do not affect my capacity to do good. A god who arbitrarily made me just so he could condemn as an inferior is not one in whom I can believe or have faith.
