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Why so Hard...

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Captain
Captain
Why was it so hard for the BORG to assimilate the Earth, it was so hard that the Queen needed to find unconventional methods of assimilation to get the job done. That had assilimated many other world probably just as large and advanced as earth, so why the problem. With the Transwarp Hubs they could get here with no problem, there were more than enought Cubes to do it, so why did have such a problem??
 
Why was it so hard for the BORG to assimilate the Earth, it was so hard that the Queen needed to find unconventional methods of assimilation to get the job done. That had assilimated many other world probably just as large and advanced as earth, so why the problem. With the Transwarp Hubs they could get here with no problem, there were more than enought Cubes to do it, so why did have such a problem??

Real world answer: the writers never really thought "Endgame" all the way through. Plot holes galore!

In-universe answer: Good ol' fashioned Federation patriotism. UFP! UFP! UFP!
 
Yeah, besides it meaning the end of Star Trek, I think the Borg are to be blamed, they never wanted to commit more than 1 cube to the assault. If they sent even 10 cubes to take over Earth that would have gotten the job done!
 
In-universe answer, the Borg don't actually learn anything from experience. They assimilate to aquire more knowledge. Somewhere in their machine calculations, it probably says they only need one cube to assimilate Earth, so that's what they send.
 
There is a math equation which explains this.

In = Ii / n

Where In is the IQ of a group of people, Ii is the IQ of the smartest person in the group and n is the number of people in the group. Since the Borg probably has a population in the trillions and they are all one big group, this equation explains why they are so stupid.
 
Why was it so hard for the BORG to assimilate the Earth, it was so hard that the Queen needed to find unconventional methods of assimilation to get the job done. That had assilimated many other world probably just as large and advanced as earth, so why the problem. With the Transwarp Hubs they could get here with no problem, there were more than enought Cubes to do it, so why did have such a problem??

Well there presumably was a reason, though it is not hard to rationalise.

If you find a way to beat one Borg ship you probably can find a way to beat ten. Ten also have much less freedom of manoevre and are much more conspicuous.

Plus what do you do with ten? Attack ten different targets and you merely fight the same battle ten times instead of once. Send all ten to Earth and you only stand a better chance of winning if the result is a difference in odds - surely Starfleet would send ten times as many ships against you?

Numbers rarely decide battles - in fact most are won before they are fought. What the Borg really need is a way to break up Starfleet and the Federation, and their allies, by "getting rid" of Earth. Sending a huge fleet to Earth might just rally them, not to mention any enemies the Borg happen to have waiting for signs of weakness.
 
Why was it so hard for the BORG to assimilate the Earth, it was so hard that the Queen needed to find unconventional methods of assimilation to get the job done. That had assilimated many other world probably just as large and advanced as earth, so why the problem. With the Transwarp Hubs they could get here with no problem, there were more than enought Cubes to do it, so why did have such a problem??

I don't think it was or is hard. They were more or less playing games, and getting unlucky sometimes. According to ST: First Contact, the Queen's real interest was evidently in Picard and making an equal out of him so they could bang, or whatever. :rolleyes: (Hey, I didn't write it.) Probably Earth and any Federation planet are not prize targets for them; they were tricked into thinking Enterprise-D had capabilities beyond their understanding when it disappeared on them at the end of "Q Who?" because they didn't know Q did it. There may also be a unique or unusual understanding of or curiosity about the Federation as a result of the Hugh experience in "I, Borg" and other stuff, but it's clear it has somehow led the Borg to be playing games. I see no reason they'd treat anything in the Federation as some huge deal they had to rush across the galaxy to deal with anyway; as Guinan said, the Federation is just raw material to them at this point, and probably only the Queen's whims, the intel from recaptured Picard and Seven of Nine, and several healthy doses of luck have kept that raw material from being consumed.

The time travel business might have had something to do with the signal they received that had been transmitted from hundreds of years before in the episode "Regeneration." Perhaps the Queen's superior insight into the mysteries of spacetime give her a better understanding of predestination paradoxes than I can offer, and for some reason she was compelled to have events play out in this fashion :)

. What the Borg really need is a way to break up Starfleet and the Federation, and their allies, by "getting rid" of Earth.

I can't see any real reason that "getting rid" of any one member of the Federation would have such a significant impact on the whole Starfleet or on all the other federated planets. Of course it would be a tragedy, but why would it break up the Federation or affect the fleet?
 
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If you find a way to beat one Borg ship you probably can find a way to beat ten. Ten also have much less freedom of manoevre and are much more conspicuous.

Plus what do you do with ten? Attack ten different targets and you merely fight the same battle ten times instead of once. Send all ten to Earth and you only stand a better chance of winning if the result is a difference in odds - surely Starfleet would send ten times as many ships against you?

If the Borg had sent two cubes, as opposed to one, during "First Contact," they would've assimilated Earth the conventional way. Ten would've made it even easier.

Admiral Hayes was assembling everything they had - they weren't sending "just enough to beat the one cube." And the only reason the cube lost was because Picard showed up and coordinated large doses of firepower against the cube's weak spot.

Had there been two cubes, the fleet would've been destroyed much faster, so that when Picard had showed up, it would've just been the Enterprise-E against one or two cubes - not enough to take it down, even knowing its weak spot.
 
I can't see any real reason that "getting rid" of any one member of the Federation would have such a significant impact on the whole Starfleet or on all the other federated planets. Of course it would be a tragedy, but why would it break up the Federation or affect the fleet?

Well it seems that the enemies of the Federation as portrayed on-screen disagree with you, ESPECIALLY the Borg, who seem to have headed straight for Earth in each attach, barring attacking a few outer colonies.

For whatever reason Earth is considered the centre of the Federation, politcally, strategically and symbollically. Attacking Earth has the same effect as destroying any centreal control and political hub would.

It is also well and truly a behind-the-lines attack, which has far more effect than the death toll or actual damage would ever suggest. 9/11 changed the world in ways we have yet to truly understand, caused massive effects on the well-being of the whole western world, and has shaped the whole of the world since. All that was destroyed were two skyscrapers and a chunk of the Pentagon, all the US lives lost amounted to 0.001% of the population.
 
If the Borg had sent two cubes, as opposed to one, during "First Contact," they would've assimilated Earth the conventional way. Ten would've made it even easier.

No, it wouldn't - you are assuming a lot of things that re not shown on screen, starting with...

Admiral Hayes was assembling everything they had - they weren't sending "just enough to beat the one cube."

You think? You really think it was desperate enough they sent everything they had but they left one of their most powerful units sitting around on the Romulan border for largely spurious reasons?

I think it far more likely they redeployed a large force to meet the threat on favourable terms but still had assets to cover and areas to protect. We know, for example, that Klingon space is relatively close to Earth, but given the bad relations at the time do you think Starfleet stripped their defenses bare?

RL example. In the Battle Of Britain the RAF never redeployed their entire fighter force to meet the Luftwafe attacks. Although more than half of the command's strength was deployed in the direct battle area (11 group) the rest was dispersed to provide cover to the whole country, squadron rotation and reserves. If all 600-700 available Spitfires and Hurricanes been based in the southern area and sent forth against every large attack, the RAF would have lost.

And the only reason the cube lost was because Picard showed up and coordinated large doses of firepower against the cube's weak spot.

I would say Picard showing up certainly helped - but the Cube had already suffered massive damage, maybe the continued attack would have destroyed the cube anyway. Picard's knowledge merely made things simpler.
 
Well, 2 points:

I think they did pull in most of what they had available because the Defiant was there, and despite being originally designed to fight the borg, DS9 isn't close to Earth.

Also, when Picard and co, hear the transmissions from the first battle, they are all the way on the romulan border, then they speed away to the fight. I don't think the fight they hear on the "radio" is the same fight. I mean how long does it take to get from the Nuetral Zone to Earth?

I don't know the answer, but I bet it is a good while, a few hours, a half a day, or a day or more?

So I would bet that a few or more battle took place with Picard arriving in time to fight the last one.
 
I think they did pull in most of what they had available because the Defiant was there, and despite being originally designed to fight the borg, DS9 isn't close to Earth.

Well actually it seems like it is relatively close at Warp 9 - certainly travel to and fro in the defiant does not take long, look at the DS9 episode where the Defiant heads to Earth and is intercepted by the Lakota.

Also, when Picard and co, hear the transmissions from the first battle, they are all the way on the romulan border, then they speed away to the fight. I don't think the fight they hear on the "radio" is the same fight. I mean how long does it take to get from the Nuetral Zone to Earth?

Not long at all - the neutral zone is presumably in territory easily reachable by the second season of ENT, so the much much much faster Ent-E could easily make the trip in a few hours.

So I would bet that a few or more battle took place with Picard arriving in time to fight the last one.

Oh I would tend to agree - especially as Picard did not leave for the battle until after it started.

Look again at RL examples. To intercept Bismarck the RN redeployed ships from all over the place, but it did not strip its defenses in other areas just to reinforce the Home Fleet even though Churchill said that all measures should be taken. In fact, it is unlikely it would have even if the nightmare fleet had sailed, and Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau all sailed out together. There are always other assets that need protection.
 
Really, we're putting a lot of faith in the word of the enemy if we think that the Borg wanted to assimilate Earth or defeat the Federation in these various encounters.

The true motivations of the Borg remain unclear - but VOY shows that the Borg are interested in a great variety of things, ranging from sampling a newly encountered cuture, to assimilating some resources, to assimilating a species, to terminating a species. Their interests even include deliberately attacking the victim piecemeal, to prompt the development of ever-better defensive strategies and technologies, as in VOY "Child's Play".

Quite possibly, the two Cubes sent to Earth both had a mission other than the assimilation of the population, or termination of resistance.

Like sbk1234 sez, "In-universe answer, the Borg don't actually learn anything from experience. They assimilate to aquire more knowledge." So it wouldn't do to terminate a species, not before the Borg have learned all they can from that species.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yeah, but Britain and the Luftwaffe are essentially the equals in capability and strength.

In First Contact however, it was the Borg.

To illustrate; this is as if the Germans sent every single last tank, soldier, ship, u-boat, and plane they had toward the Britain across the Channel, and then Britain deciding to not redeploy and send only their - relatively speaking - handfuls of planes and soldiers stationed at that border against all those massive numbers.

The Federation would have thrown everything they could get back in time at the Borg.
 
Well, the first time around, Adm. Hanson seemed pretty confident he had the Borg's number, and it was forty starships.

After he was proven wrong, I'm sure somebody at SF Command came up with another number. And he or she seemed to get it more or less right: the Cube didn't get through in ST:FC. Had it reached Earth orbit, it couldn't have done the classic scoop-the-cities trick, not with a hundred ships breathing down its cybernetic-collective neck (and well into the process of breaking said neck). And even its ability to deploy weapons of mass destruction was doubtful at that point.

So it seemed to be just a question of numbers. The first time around, Starfleet didn't know how to do the math; the second time around, they did. If Britain had faced all of Hitler's might, they would have had a pretty good idea of the magnitude of that might - and would perhaps have surrendered, as there was no military strength on the islands to resist a full invasion. OTOH, Britain did face the full might of Göring, in practice every last single flying machine the Nazis had, and they had the numbers figured out in that case, too. It was not just their chance but their duty to be cool and calculative and to hold back in suitable degree.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I agree, to state my point again, I am sure they engaged them and regrouped and fought again and again.

I don't think that space is as small as some suggested. I think it could and should take the Enterprise most of a day at least to get to the battle. Which of course, showing in the movie would have been extremely boring...
 
Yeah, but Britain and the Luftwaffe are essentially the equals in capability and strength.

Well in reality, this proved to be relatively so, the "Battle of Britain" was essentially an engagement between two forces of single seat fighters in which the numbers were about 700 Hurricanes and Spitfires of the RAF and 900 Bf-109 fighters of the Luftwaffe, in which battle the forces were closely matched.

That said the total Luftwaffe force committed was about 2500 aircraft, so in pure one-dimensional thinking, the RAF was outnumbered 4 to 1.

In First Contact however, it was the Borg.

No more feared or formidable than Nazi Germany - we are talking the force that had just conquered the whole of Western Europe in about three months seemingly effortlessly - seems pretty Borg-like to me.

To illustrate; this is as if the Germans sent every single last tank, soldier, ship, u-boat, and plane they had toward the Britain across the Channel, and then Britain deciding to not redeploy and send only their - relatively speaking - handfuls of planes and soldiers stationed at that border against all those massive numbers.

Historically actually the Germans would have been highly unlikely to pull off an invasion, though this was not understood at the time.

However, as in any military campaign, the resources you have need to be husbanded and well deployed. While there are always occasions when everything you have is engaged you don't just simply throw everything you have at a single target. If you did, the Borg would just send two ships and have one turn up a few hours later, they win.

The Federation would have thrown everything they could get back in time at the Borg.

No, they would not. Apart from anything else how many starships can actually wheel around in that space around a cube? Given the short range at which combat seems to take place (one must assume at longer ranges the weapons are ineffective or something) no more than a couple fo dozen ships can engae at any one time.

I'd have sent groups of 25 starships in waves, to break off when they started to lose shields and be replaced by another wave. Maybe 200 odd ships in total, but it is hard to believe Starfleet would send everything they had. Things just do not work that way.
 
Why not get a few ships out of mothballs and just ram the suckers right into the side of the cube??
 
Because the Cube has those tractor beams that grab and hold even the mightiest ships without breaking a cybernetic sweat? The Borg did that to the E-D in "BoBW", and to the Saratoga in "Emissary". They cut to pieces the Excelsior class vessel that did a straight run in "Emissary", too. Not to mention the three ships/missiles near Mars in "BoBW".

Apparently, ramming isn't effective against a Cube, at least not at impulse speeds. Whether Riker's "BoBW" attempt at warp ramming would have worked is unknown, but one suspects that at least a couple of ships at Wofl 359 would have tried that - and if so, they obviously failed.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I can't see any real reason that "getting rid" of any one member of the Federation would have such a significant impact on the whole Starfleet or on all the other federated planets. Of course it would be a tragedy, but why would it break up the Federation or affect the fleet?

Well it seems that the enemies of the Federation as portrayed on-screen disagree with you, ESPECIALLY the Borg, who seem to have headed straight for Earth in each attach, barring attacking a few outer colonies.

For whatever reason Earth is considered the centre of the Federation, politcally, strategically and symbollically.

Presumably because it's the capital planet and central control hub for Starfleet.

But JNG makes a valid point when he notes that the loss of Earth, by itself, would not necessarily lead to the fall of the Federation. However, the assimilation of Earth would give the Borg a territorial foothold from which to continue their invasion of the quadrant.

If the Borg had sent two cubes, as opposed to one, during "First Contact," they would've assimilated Earth the conventional way. Ten would've made it even easier.

No, it wouldn't - you are assuming a lot of things that re not shown on screen, starting with...

No, it's shown onscreen, and quite plainly so.

Admiral Hayes was assembling everything they had - they weren't sending "just enough to beat the one cube."

You think? You really think it was desperate enough they sent everything they had but they left one of their most powerful units sitting around on the Romulan border for largely spurious reasons?

I think it far more likely they redeployed a large force to meet the threat on favourable terms but still had assets to cover and areas to protect. We know, for example, that Klingon space is relatively close to Earth, but given the bad relations at the time do you think Starfleet stripped their defenses bare?

Whilst it's probably fair to say that Starfleet didn't re-deploy EVERY ship it had, it almost certainly re-deployed every ship it could coneceivably spare. Remember, they were engaging an enemy whose single ship had destroyed forty of theirs six years before and whom they only defeated with a fluke of luck. (What would have happened if the Borg had had a better firewall in 2367?)

Further, the Borg cube was first engaged in the Typhon Sector at the edge of Federation space. That means that Starfleet fought a running battle with the cube that dragged across the Federation -- and it didn't end until the cube had reached Earth orbit. And there were only a few ships left, and more and more were getting picked off even in the only few minutes of the battle we saw onscreen. Starfleet was very clearly losing until Picard realized that if they fired at the magic Achilles Heel, the cube would go 'splodey.

And the only reason the cube lost was because Picard showed up and coordinated large doses of firepower against the cube's weak spot.

I would say Picard showing up certainly helped - but the Cube had already suffered massive damage, maybe the continued attack would have destroyed the cube anyway. Picard's knowledge merely made things simpler.

Nonsense. What the movie again. The cube was winning and barely damaged before Picard showed up, and it was still picking off ships very easily whilst the Federation ships were barely scratching it.

Had they sent two cubes, Starfleet would have lost and Earth would have been assimilated.

Really, we're putting a lot of faith in the word of the enemy if we think that the Borg wanted to assimilate Earth or defeat the Federation in these various encounters.

The true motivations of the Borg remain unclear - but VOY shows that the Borg are interested in a great variety of things, ranging from sampling a newly encountered cuture, to assimilating some resources, to assimilating a species, to terminating a species. Their interests even include deliberately attacking the victim piecemeal, to prompt the development of ever-better defensive strategies and technologies, as in VOY "Child's Play".

Quite possibly, the two Cubes sent to Earth both had a mission other than the assimilation of the population, or termination of resistance.

Like sbk1234 sez, "In-universe answer, the Borg don't actually learn anything from experience. They assimilate to aquire more knowledge." So it wouldn't do to terminate a species, not before the Borg have learned all they can from that species.

Timo Saloniemi

Interesting point. It's entirely possible that the Collective's goals were met either way. If they assimilate the Federation, great, and if they don't, then that prompts technological development that will make them a tastier target later on.

At least one novel, DS9: Lesser Evil by Robert Simpson, noted that some Federation strategists postulated that the Borg may have been testing the Federation, seeking to measure its ingenuity, rather than seeking to dedicate its full resources to the assimilation of the UFP.

Well, the first time around, Adm. Hanson seemed pretty confident he had the Borg's number, and it was forty starships.

After he was proven wrong, I'm sure somebody at SF Command came up with another number. And he or she seemed to get it more or less right: the Cube didn't get through in ST:FC. Had it reached Earth orbit, it couldn't have done the classic scoop-the-cities trick, not with a hundred ships breathing down its cybernetic-collective neck (and well into the process of breaking said neck).

Um, it did reach Earth orbit. And there were maybe, maybe 20 ships still battling the cube when the Enterprise showed up -- and the thing was winning, picking them off one at a time whilst receiving minimal damage itself.

And even its ability to deploy weapons of mass destruction was doubtful at that point.

Hardly. A ship's phasers were established to be capable of exterminating all life on a planet's surface as long ago as TOS's "A Taste of Armageddon," and Borg weapons were always established to be far more powerful than phasers. The cube's ability to deploy weapons of mass destruction is not the least bit in question.

In First Contact however, it was the Borg.

No more feared or formidable than Nazi Germany - we are talking the force that had just conquered the whole of Western Europe in about three months seemingly effortlessly - seems pretty Borg-like to me.

Nazi Germany didn't possess technology centuries more advanced than anything Great Britain did.

Really, a more comparable battle would be World War II-era Great Britain vs. the Aztec.


Given the short range at which combat seems to take place (one must assume at longer ranges the weapons are ineffective or something) no more than a couple fo dozen ships can engae at any one time.

Um, no. We've seen hundreds of ships do battle during the Dominion War at once.

BTW, for anyone who wants to see just how truly one-sided a full-scale war against the Borg Collective would be in conventional military terms, I'd suggest reading David Mack's excellent Destiny trilogy -- which is far better and has far more depth than its summary, "The Borg Collective decides to exterminate the Federation with a massive invasion force," would suggest
 
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