TOS Engineering Layout

[darkwing_duck1]

I'd take any TAS references with some very large grains of salt. The guys at Filmation didn't seem to have a clue about the size of the ship, or just didn't give a rip.

The "syringe" (image upper left) could fit into one of what I call the "Head"s in the standard engine room with no problem.

The "pipes" assemblies (image upper right and middle) I USED to think were poorly drawn versions of the pipe room through the "grill window", but rewatching "OoOPiM" shows that they are in the nacelles themselves, not Engineering.

The big hatch room (image bottom) I have no bleepin idea WHAT to do with....

Oh, and Timo, the Defiant may have been in the MU, but it was from our universe...

 

[Plecostomus]

I designed an engine-room/engineering layout for an RPG. The reactor was behind a containment shield and "main engineering" was little more than a control-room. There were points throughout the engineering hull with control boards and access points that penetrated the containment.

Based it upon what I've seen at the Local Nuclear Power Plant when they used to offer tours.

"hey haven't you been here before?"
"Yeah, every time."
"You should be giving the tour then!"

Glad to see other people thinking in terms of more than one engine room, and I seriously like some of the engine-gut layouts I'm seeing here.

 

[Timo]

Oh, and Timo, the Defiant may have been in the MU, but it was from our universe...

Umm, Shaw was referring to the episode "Mirror, Mirror" where Kirk's quarters aboard the Terran Empire starship Enterprise are on Deck 5. One might think of a thousand reasons why things in the Mirror Universe would be so different from things in the regular universe as to require a somewhat different cabin for the Captain, too. say, perhaps the practical little remote assassination device required more space than was available on Deck 3?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Oh, and Timo, the Defiant may have been in the MU, but it was from our universe...

Umm, Shaw was referring to the episode "Mirror, Mirror" where Kirk's quarters aboard the Terran Empire starship Enterprise are on Deck 5. One might think of a thousand reasons why things in the Mirror Universe would be so different from things in the regular universe as to require a somewhat different cabin for the Captain, too. say, perhaps the practical little remote assassination device required more space than was available on Deck 3?

Timo Saloniemi

Whoops! My bad!

 

[Cary L. Brown]

In the images seen below, it's important to note that two of them (the middle one and the upper right one) were intended to be INSIDE of the warp nacelle. You're basically looking at the same element in both cases... a long walkway running down the centerline of a nacelle, with rows of "matter/antimatter reactors" along either side. In this case, they were walking down there to manually load antimatter to "restart" the engine (which could, then, presumably restart the other one, much as a jet engine can be used to power the starting cycle for another jet engine).

Instead of being "poorly thought-out," I actually really LIKE this approach... but remember, this is from the days before everyone thought every starship had a single "warp core," and the assumption was that power was generated in the nacelles (again, much like is the case in real aircraft).

So are you saying that the Emergency Manual Monitor room would be sitting on top of the center dividing wall? And that the wall in the EMM room that we never see is another open grating overlooking the other engine room?

That makes for an interesting solution. It would also seem to add places for TAS engine room elements too.

If you need a better resolution graphic of the Day of the Dove display, I can dig one up. I've collected a few display graphics from TOS.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, frankly, the idea of all power generation coming from the nacelles has never set well with me, not only because of the references that indicate the opposite, but because it makes very little engineering sense to have something that critical, and which breaks down as much as it does during the run of the show, in such an inaccessible location (not to mention the vulnerability issue; might as well hang "SHOOT HERE!" signs on each one).

Logically, anything in the nacelles should have as few moving parts as possible and require as little maintenance as possible; plasma injectors, warp coils, heat exchangers seem to fit the bill as far as I'm concerned.

As for the Bussard collectors, they're probably the most accessible, relatively speaking, part of the nacelle, so that's not necessarily a problem.

The main reactor, the dilithium crystals (and the housing), and the fuel supply, though, that you want to have quick and easy access to, which means in the vicinity of Main Engineering.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Well, frankly, the idea of all power generation coming from the nacelles has never set well with me, not only because of the references that indicate the opposite, but because it makes very little engineering sense to have something that critical, and which breaks down as much as it does during the run of the show, in such an inaccessible location (not to mention the vulnerability issue; might as well hang "SHOOT HERE!" signs on each one).

Logically, anything in the nacelles should have as few moving parts as possible and require as little maintenance as possible; plasma injectors, warp coils, heat exchangers seem to fit the bill as far as I'm concerned.

As for the Bussard collectors, they're probably the most accessible, relatively speaking, part of the nacelle, so that's not necessarily a problem.

The main reactor, the dilithium crystals (and the housing), and the fuel supply, though, that you want to have quick and easy access to, which means in the vicinity of Main Engineering.

Well, think about a modern nuclear reactor as a parallel...

The "main working parts" you really have no contact with... for reasons that are quite obvious, I think. Extreme heat, high levels of radiation, etc.

Seems to me that a matter/antimatter reaction would be much the same. And remember, MJ put the engines in nacelles because he wanted to keep the "unsafe" elements away from the inhabited regions.

So I still very much prefer the main power generation systems being in the nacelles. Obviously, that's water under the bridge now (TMP and then TNG essentially eliminated that), but it still makes sense to me.

Part of the confusion here, I think, was brought about by the sort of "redefinition" of what Dilithium does. In the 1970s, it was widely accepted (based upon limited and somewhat contradictory evidence in TOS and TAS) that the crystals' job was the conversion of the raw radiation from teh m/am reaction into usable power. Basically... dilithium converts radiation into electricity (for lack of a better analogy). And the whole "main engineering" set was where the nacelle's power output was being converted into power that the rest of the ship (besides the warp drive) could operate by.

It wasn't 'til TNG that they decided that dilithium somehow "moderates the m/am reaction" itself. So dilithium suddenly has to be AT the reactor, not at some point downstream from it.

I really wish that they hadn't done that. But, as I said, it's sort of water under the bridge, huh?

 

[Captain Robert April]

Take another look at "Elaan of Troyius". When the dilithium crystals get fried, the warp drive is completely inoperable. The only way to get it working is to fit the crystals in Elaan's necklace into the frame, and even then the "energy flow" is erratic.

Translation: The energy from the matter/antimatter reactor (referred to earlier in the episode by Scotty, in the singular) goes through the crystals to the nacelles to power the warp drive. This is not revisionism, this is clearly shown in the course of the episode itself.

Also, take a peek at "That Which Survives". Scotty is sticking that magnetic probe/serving fork into (in Spocks' words) "the matter/antimatter reaction chamber" in order to cut off the energy flow to the runaway warp engines.

Like I've said elsewhere, and I think upthread, when the crisis involved Scotty actually fixing what was wrong with the engines, the tech references pointed towards a single, central reactor inside the secondary hull, feeding energy to the nacelles and the rest of the ship. When Scotty couldn't do a thing and Kirk had to talk a computer into suicide on the planet surface, the writers took the cheap way out and made some vague reference to the nacelles.

And frankly, "pod" is even more vague than "nacelle". By definition, all nacelles are pods, but not all pods are nacelles, so references to the "antimatter pods" work just as well as big cryogenic cylinders in the bottom of the secondary hull as they do as the nacelles, if not better, in light of the more specific references cited above.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Take another look at "Elaan of Troyius". When the dilithium crystals get fried, the warp drive is completely inoperable. The only way to get it working is to fit the crystals in Elaan's necklace into the frame, and even then the "energy flow" is erratic.

Translation: The energy from the matter/antimatter reactor (referred to earlier in the episode by Scotty, in the singular) goes through the crystals to the nacelles to power the warp drive. This is not revisionism, this is clearly shown in the course of the episode itself.

Also, take a peek at "That Which Survives". Scotty is sticking that magnetic probe/serving fork into (in Spocks' words) "the matter/antimatter reaction chamber" in order to cut off the energy flow to the runaway warp engines.

Like I've said elsewhere, and I think upthread, when the crisis involved Scotty actually fixing what was wrong with the engines, the tech references pointed towards a single, central reactor inside the secondary hull, feeding energy to the nacelles and the rest of the ship. When Scotty couldn't do a thing and Kirk had to talk a computer into suicide on the planet surface, the writers took the cheap way out and made some vague reference to the nacelles.

And frankly, "pod" is even more vague than "nacelle". By definition, all nacelles are pods, but not all pods are nacelles, so references to the "antimatter pods" work just as well as big cryogenic cylinders in the bottom of the secondary hull as they do as the nacelles, if not better, in light of the more specific references cited above.

CRA, you're welcome to hold your own personal opinion. I don't share it, however, and don't see the same level of "support" for it that you seem to (much as I also disagree, quite strongly, with some of your ideas about the bridge). And it's OK to disagree.

It's pretty simple... you've drawn your own set of conclusions, and have built up your own "personal canon" where things are that way. I (and some others) have a different take, and see things in a different way. Since it's not REAL, and since there are distinctly contradictory bits throughout the show anyway, that's OK.

To me, it's always been completely clear that MJ intended power generation to be in the nacelles. This isn't just because of a comments made by him or others over the years, though those certainly add to it. In his case, well... he was thinking in "aircraft" terms, and the Enterprise, like a modern aircraft, derives its power from the propulsion system, then conditions it into usable power (again, much like with a contemporary aircraft) within the main body.

What I see when I see the TOS engine room isn't where the reaction is taking place... I see where some small portion of the reaction's output is brought into the main hull and transformed into usable power (in fact, electrical power) to drive all the other ship's systems... including the control systems for the warp drive.

Think of a far simpler analogy... your car. The power is generated in the internal combustion engine, but the engine can't operate unless there is electrical power to drive spark plugs and to run the engine controller module and so forth.

In that analogy, the "main engineering" set is the equivalent, not of the engine itself, but rather the alternator.

 

[Captain Robert April]

If I were to invoke a car analogy, I'd say Main Engineering is somewhere under the hood, next to the engine, and the nacelles are the wheels.

 

[Wingsley]

Well, we see Kryton tampering with something involving the reaction/dilithium assembly, but there is nothing conclusive that all the Enterprise's reactors and/or dilithium are all in one place. This would directly contradict onscreen evidence we see in "The Alternative Factor" and Spock's sensor tracking of the non-corporeal entity "near reactor number three" in "Day of the Dove".

There may be multiple reactors, some for impulse drive in the saucer and some for warp drive in the secondary hull and nacelles, and they may be interconnected. It could well be that the only way to break the connection would be to separate them physically.

From "Elaan", we know Kryton did two things: he damaged the dilithium assembly in the warp drive and he planted a bomb that was somehow connected to the warp drive. But this is not conclusive that the Enterprise's warp drive is all powered from one room in the secondary hull, nor does it mean that all the ship's power or dilithium assemblies are located in one place. Keep in mind Kryton damaged the ship without actually touching the crystals. There could well be dilithium in more than one part of the ship that he was able to affect simultaneously using the reactor network against itself.

The really incredible part of "Elaan" is that only one officer appeared to be on-duty in the Warp Drive Engine Room and nobody else detected Kryton's tampering until after the damage was done.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

There have been proposals for orbiting large solar arrays and transmitting electricity back to Earth for years now.

When you say transmitting electricity back to earth, do you mean like Nikola Tesla's ideas?


CuttingEdge100

 

[GodThingFormerly]

When you say transmitting electricity back to earth, do you mean like Nikola Tesla's ideas?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_satellites

TGT

 

[aridas sofia]

And frankly, "pod" is even more vague than "nacelle". By definition, all nacelles are pods, but not all pods are nacelles, so references to the "antimatter pods" work just as well as big cryogenic cylinders in the bottom of the secondary hull as they do as the nacelles, if not better, in light of the more specific references cited above.

When if we were to ignore the writers' intent, if this were the case, we would also have to ignore all references to "matter-antimatter pods."

That is, unless we are to believe the matter and antimatter are being held together in the same "big cryogenic cylinders".

 

[Timo]

This would directly contradict onscreen evidence we see in "The Alternative Factor" and Spock's sensor tracking of the non-corporeal entity "near reactor number three" in "Day of the Dove".

Not really. The dilithium machinery in "Alternative Factor" probably had nothing to do with the usual practice of using dilithium for power regulation, as the dialogue established that the four paddles of dilithium were in a process of recuperation or "energizing". This "energizer" would tell us nothing about where the dilithium lies during normal power creation; note also that removal of the four paddles from the "energizer" did not deprive the ship of operating power in any fashion. Possibly the remaining paddles (perhaps two, if six was a standard load-up in "Mudd's Women"?) were still in place in the actual power generating machinery.

An "energizer" might always be needed to keep the dilithium in working condition; the "main energizer" would be integrated to the power generation system and would keep the online dilithium in good health, while this separate nursing station would process offline dilithium.

And references to "reactors" must always be considered in light of the two alternatives: warp or impulse? "Catspaw" suggests there are at least three impulse reactors, and probably more or the number three would have been replaced by the word "all". The distinction would almost always be obvious to our heroes from the context, of course.

The really incredible part of "Elaan" is that only one officer appeared to be on-duty in the Warp Drive Engine Room and nobody else detected Kryton's tampering until after the damage was done.

Umm, the ship did crawl at impulse, and was expected to do so for possibly several days still. Warp drive might be really user-friendly and care-free when idled or shut down, warranting "standing down of the guard".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CuttingEdge100]

I don't know if a wireless transfer system would be all that practical on the Enterprise.

Those reactors put out so much power that a wireless system would probably have to be transmitted solely through a vacuum as the energy beam would probably superheat the air into high energy plasma if it was fired into the air. I suppose directing a beam through a vacuum would be easier than the power transfer conduits used on the Enterprise however.


CuttingEdge100

 

[Shaw]

I don't know if a wireless transfer system would be all that practical on the Enterprise.

Those reactors put out so much power that a wireless system would probably have to be transmitted solely through a vacuum as the energy beam would probably superheat the air into high energy plasma if it was fired into the air. I suppose directing a beam through a vacuum would be easier than the power transfer conduits used on the Enterprise however.

Well, we know that the Enterprise does transmit power over great distances (and through thousands of feet of atmosphere) from The Cage...

Briefing room dialog...
Tyler: Why aren’t we doing anything? That entry may have stood up against hand lasers, but we can transmit the ship's power against it, enough to blast half a continent.

Number One: Engineering deck will rig to transmit ship's power. We'll try blasting through that metal.​

and...

Talios surface dialog...
Number One: All circuits engaged, Mr. Spock.
Spock (on Enterprise): Standing by, Number One.
Number One: Take cover.
Spock (on Enterprise): Ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.
Number One: Increase to full power.
Number One: Can you give us any more?
Spock (on Enterprise): Our circuits are beginning to heat. We'll have to cease power.
Number One: Disengage!​

Most type of electromagnetic waves we don't see or feel, and they only really register to us at certain wavelengths. But we still make use of those waves by having transmitters and receivers.

What if the Enterprise transmits energy in a way that has no effect on most types of matter. What if the only thing that can transmit or receive (convert back to a usable form) this energy is dilithium.

The dilithium crystals and paddles might be how energy is transferred through the ship and even how the warp nacelles are powered. And a dilithium crystal smaller than a grain of sand might be how most free standing equipment is powered on the Enterprise. There might even be a crystal of that type on tricorders for re-powering (which the Gorn locked onto to turn Spock's tricorder into an explosive device).

If the crystals fail you could come up with a bypass to get power from place to place... unless you burn out all those circuits like in Mudd's Women.


So, here we are in the early 21st century... we don't know of dilithium or what it's properties are, so we don't know about how channeling energy into these crystals converts it into another forum that can be converted back with another crystal. And unless set to a very specific specification, that energy passes harmlessly through nearly everything (and maybe phasers are what happens when it is beamed in the non-harmless way).

Several hundred years ago there was no nuclear power, there was no radio, there wasn't a lot of technologies we take for granted today... several hundred years from now, who knows? With what we know today, sure, a wireless transfer system wouldn't be all that practical, but fortunately Star Trek isn't set in today's world.

 

[ahkyahnan]

There have been proposals for orbiting large solar arrays and transmitting electricity back to Earth for years now.

When you say transmitting electricity back to earth, do you mean like Nikola Tesla's ideas?
CuttingEdge100

Sorry for just now responding. What TGT linked to is the type of process I was referring to.

Mark

 

[Wingsley]

Lest we forget, when we consider wireless transfer of power, we have to look at solutions utilizing our technology. (Nothing subspace related.) TNG, especially "The Best of Both Worlds" seemed to make it pretty clear that the wireless nature of both Transporter beams and the Borg's collective consciousness are both based on some sort of subspace radio technology. It should be a foregone conclusion that wireless energy transfer would be possible aboard "Cage"-era Federation starships (and possibly as far back as ENT?) using short-range subspace radio technology. And don't be surprised if Kryton used something like this to both sabotage the Enterprise's reactor network and to communicate with the Klingons.

 

[DaveyNY]

Could it be that the differences between the Pre-TMP Era (TOS) and TMP Era-Forward (TNG), as to how and where the energy is supplied to the WARP ENGINES, has something to do with the fact that the former uses Natural Dilithium Crystals and the latter uses Artificial (Man-Made) ones??

Perhaps Natural Crystals can only convert the Flow of Energy at a Very Basic Level, just enough that it can be slightly manipulated to create a Lower Energy WARP Bubble and power the ships systems.
(Thus the simple containment chamber in the middle of one of the TOS engineering rooms.)

Whereas the Artificial Crystals can be manipulated at a much finer level thus giving a Higher Energy WARP Bubble and a lot more power for much larger ships as well as the power needed for creating small amounts of Antimatter.
(Thus the rather Large Articulated Rack/Chamber that has become the main focus of the Engineering Team.)

It could explain the different WARP Scales and also why from TMP on, the chamber holding the crystals appears to be more in a direct line from the M/AM storage units TO the Nacelles.
(Instead of IN the Nacelles as it appears occasionally in TOS.)

If I remember correctly, this seems to hold up even to the NX-01's engineering arrangement (where they would presumably be using Natural Crystals) as the conversion chamber was huge and it appeared that the crystals were not really in alignment of the stream but just stuck into the chamber at one end?