Andrew Probert and Rick Sternbach: The New Enterprise

[Crazy Eddie]

Hurray for them, but I want more new Trek that's based off of those series, personally.

Eh... that's just cuz you're old.

Since Star Trek is not a technological documentary, the cosmetic appearance of the ship is about as minor as it gets.

Except when they aren't minor cosmetic changes.

As long as the Enterprise has a saucer, a low-slung engineering hull and two warp nacelles, yes they are.

So let's have a look.

Saucer module - CHECK
Warp nacelles - CHECK
Engineering section - CHECK
Shuttle bay - CHECK
Deflector dish - CHECK
Bridge on top of the saucer - CHECK
Registry NCC-1701 - CHECK

You have these things and you have The Enterprise. The details of what each of these elements actually look like constitute minor cosmetic changes. To put it frankly, I actually like MOST of these changes. It's not as attractive as the TMP refit, but then again neither is the ENT-D. It's one of those designs that grows on you over time the more you see it in action.

Hurray for you; I never claimed I had any authority other than over myself...

Then your opinion is thoroughly irrelevant and I can go on ignoring you.

 

[Captain X]

Eh... that's just cuz you're old.

26 is old?

Actually it's because I already liked what I saw enough to want more.

As long as the Enterprise has a saucer, a low-slung engineering hull and two warp nacelles, yes they are.

So let's have a look.

Saucer module - CHECK
Warp nacelles - CHECK
Engineering section - CHECK
Shuttle bay - CHECK
Deflector dish - CHECK
Bridge on top of the saucer - CHECK
Registry NCC-1701 - CHECK

You have these things and you have The Enterprise. The details of what each of these elements actually look like constitute minor cosmetic changes. To put it frankly, I actually like MOST of these changes. It's not as attractive as the TMP refit, but then again neither is the ENT-D. It's one of those designs that grows on you over time the more you see it in action.

That basic description fits 90% of all Federation starships, so you and every other person who's used this argument is just spinning their tires. By your logic they might as well have used the E-D for this movie and pretended it was the original.

Then your opinion is thoroughly irrelevant and I can go on ignoring you.

Fine with me, I couldn't care less if you never posted in here again.

 

[Psion]

Scientists haven't taken Eugenics seriously since the early 1960s, around the time Space Seed aired. Genetic Engineering was the new cutting edge in the 1980s, when Wrath of Khan was written.

It is outdated, in other words, because Eugenics is an outdated scientific concept.

Er ... not quite.

I read your explanation, but can't quite agree. The United States still had a fair number of eugenics advocates until the end of the Civil Rights movement (mostly conservatives who pushed--unsuccessfully but repeatedly--for mandatory sterilization of violent criminals). Some elements of that agenda were still fresh in the mind of the audience, or at least the writers. Less so in the 1980s, where a larger portion of the audience would have had to consult an encyclopedia to know exactly what Eugenics was if not an earlier form of genetic engineering.

So is it your contention that eugenics as a science has been discredited or that Nick Meyer deliberately changed Khan's origins from eugenics to genetic engineering? Or both? And, given the stated instructions of the moderator, what relevance does this have to the new Enterprise?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I imagine that "genetic engineering" was substituted without any particular thought simply because it was a more current and familiar term at the time TWOK was written. It's even likely that the writer(s), like many otherwise smart people who have only a passing interest in science, weren't clear on the distinction.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The funny thing is that he's so much more serious about it than I am.

Oh bull. We're all serious about it. Even Dennis gets sucked in sometimes

I do not - d'oh!

 

[Psion]

^^

 

[judexavier]

Scientists haven't taken Eugenics seriously since the early 1960s, around the time Space Seed aired. Genetic Engineering was the new cutting edge in the 1980s, when Wrath of Khan was written.

It is outdated, in other words, because Eugenics is an outdated scientific concept.

Er ... not quite.

I read your explanation, but can't quite agree. The United States still had a fair number of eugenics advocates until the end of the Civil Rights movement (mostly conservatives who pushed--unsuccessfully but repeatedly--for mandatory sterilization of violent criminals). Some elements of that agenda were still fresh in the mind of the audience, or at least the writers. Less so in the 1980s, where a larger portion of the audience would have had to consult an encyclopedia to know exactly what Eugenics was if not an earlier form of genetic engineering.

Well, let's not forget dear Ms. Margaret Higgins Sanger and friends, and Planned Parenthood...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So is it your contention that eugenics as a science has been discredited or that Nick Meyer deliberately changed Khan's origins from eugenics to genetic engineering?

I'd mostly agree with polaris that it was probably changed without much thought just because "genetic engineering" was the more modern term for "stuff people are working on that could create Khan." Nobody was still working on Eugenics in the 80s, so it wasn't discredited as much as it was obscure and/or unpopular.

Well, let's not forget dear Ms. Margaret Higgins Sanger and friends, and Planned Parenthood...

Sanger died in 66 though, and her ideas haven't been particularly mainstream ever since.

And, given the stated instructions of the moderator, what relevance does this have to the new Enterprise?

The strange and obvious fact that aesthetics--like scientific concepts and paradigms--sometimes get outdated. TOS Enterprise was a cool ship, but it IS the result of 1960s set design and execution. Actually, as far as staying true to the original intent of the creators I'm pretty impressed with the retcons. If Enterprise' design and interiors were supposedly inspired by WW-II era naval vessels, the bridge design reflects that meme extremely well. Even the corridors people keep complaining about... what did they look like BEFORE except featureless gray passageways and the occasional precariously-balanced prop? The worst you can say is that the bridge doesn't have viewscreens anymore, just a huge window with heads-up displays and probably overlay capacity so Kirk can still say "magnify;" this doesn't tell me anything except that Abrams is keenly aware that all Trek shows since TOS have shown Starships fighting within visual range of each other, and if you're going to be that close ANYWAY, you might as well just look out the widow.

 

[judexavier]

Perhaps the use of certain language has fallen out of favor, but not the eugenic goals.

FOCA, embyonic stem-cell research, the "over-population" myth, etc, etc...
all of these (and more) are certainly continuations of the same sort of eugenic (both postitive and negative types) ideologies that have existed since the late 19th century. Yes, the NAZI's did have a negative impact on the word eugenics in PR campaigns after WWII, but certainly not against the actual secular/utopian goals of people like Sanger.

I would like to recommend a very well-written book, "Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Legacy" by Angela Franks.

I appologise for this being so far off topic from the original thread. Perhaps a discussion in another forum?

 

[Captain X]

The strange and obvious fact that aesthetics--like scientific concepts and paradigms--sometimes get outdated. TOS Enterprise was a cool ship, but it IS the result of 1960s set design and execution.

You might actually have a point if the Abrams-prise didn't share so many elements from cars of the '50s on the outside and have an interior right out of a '70s vintage B sci fi movie (which also looks like it's from the '50s)

Even the corridors people keep complaining about... what did they look like BEFORE except featureless gray passageways and the occasional precariously-balanced prop?

I think the thing most laughable about the corridors is how much space they waste by having a circular cross-section.

The worst you can say is that the bridge doesn't have viewscreens anymore, just a huge window with heads-up displays and probably overlay capacity so Kirk can still say "magnify;" this doesn't tell me anything except that Abrams is keenly aware that all Trek shows since TOS have shown Starships fighting within visual range of each other, and if you're going to be that close ANYWAY, you might as well just look out the widow.

Or he, like many others, actually thinks that the viewscreen actually is a window.

 

[Ronald Held]

People actually think the viewscreen is a windows??

 

[Timo]

Well, it does a better job than many of the previous viewscreens at pretending that it is a window.

Mostly, it shows a view that not only is a plausible forward view from roughly the bridge level, but also features a strip of the saucer surface at the lower edge. Now whether that means that it's a real window or happens to have a mode that makes it look like one is up to debate - right until the moment when we get an outside-in view...

Really, I rather doubt that we get anything like that. The Kelvin has a nicely visible window there, if the Intel site images are representative of the actual ship. The Enterprise model so far hasn't shown signs of such a thing, even though we got a brief head-on view (the "departing from Earth orbit" one).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain X]

People actually think the viewscreen is a windows??

Yes, but these are the kind of people who confuse Klingons for Romulans and think that there was a movie with teddy bears in it.

 

[Captain Robert April]

And it appears that these are the same people who are making this movie.

 

[Psion]

Shhh ... don't be so negative. We have time travel and parallel realities outside that window now.

 

[ancient]

I think the angle shown on the viewer just changes if you look at it from a different angle. It's a simulated window.

Dynamic viewscreens aren't a new idea. I can recall at least one time in TNG when Picard and a klingon were talking over the ENT-D viewer. The camera was giving a POV shot over Picard's shoulder, and the klingon was facing directly towards him. When the camera angle changed to a side shot, we clearly see the side of the klingon's face. Which is impossibe to have happen on a screen, but it's exactly what happens with a window.

 

[David cgc]

Ah, yes, TNG's holographic viewscreen. They used that trick a lot. Not only did it look cool, but in exchange for a little extra prep by the cinematographer, the visual effects became much easier, because they didn't have to distort the footage on the viewscreen as it would appear on a screen seen at an angle. The could just plug it straight in.

 

[Atrocities]

I had to come back just to make this post. I originally joined over eight years ago and was a member of a great many star trek forums and just got burned out. But this, this insult to Star Trek could not go unanswered. I am sorry, but this new ship isn't the Enterprise. It is an insult beyond words. I get the whole time to reset star trek argument and concept, but honestly, why the hell do they have to make the new ship look like its been ran though one of those photo morphing programs. The ones that make you all silly looking and such. Jimmy is rolling in his grave right now. Gene... well poor Gene.

 

[Peter the Younger]

People actually think the viewscreen is a windows??

Yes, but these are the kind of people who confuse Klingons for Romulans and think that there was a movie with teddy bears in it.

You mean the Furlings?

As for the ship, the nacelle positioning and the shape of the struts rub me the wrong way, but it isn't going to kill the movie for me. To be quite honest, I hated the the 1701-D for about three years ("looks like the offspring of an apartment building and a shellfish...") and I still watched the show.

 

[Captain X]

They didn't try to pretend that it was supposed to be the original, though. That is by far the thing that rubs me the most about how the ship looks.