Would you blame humanity? (DESTINY SPOILERS)

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Let me suggest an analogy. Suppose a US passenger jet crashes, and someone comes up to the NTSB and alleges that it was the result of terrorists using some new undetectable technology. But the investigators find no evidence to support this, and the witness disappears and can't be found. It's just an unsubstantiated claim, one that would cause a panic or desire for retaliation that might be completely unjustified. In those circumstances, would it be responsible to announce that unproven and inflammatory hypothesis to the general public? Or would it be wiser to wait and say nothing until the investigation turned up something tangible?

That's what I'm talking about. Not covering up a known fact, but choosing not to broadcast an unproven hypothesis that might not be true at all, at least as far as Bacco and her people can discern. You can't even call it a secret; from their perspective, it's merely an allegation.

If we are talking about official records here, I don`t think people would doubt the story.

Exactly. Official records of what? There's no hard evidence. It's pure hearsay.

I don`t think people like Picard, Riker and Dax (just to name a few more well known higher ranking Starfleet officers who know the truth) are "someone". If they would choose to go public with this story, proof or not, I am sure a lot of people would believe them. At the very least, a lot of people would ask questions and wonder how much of this story is true.

That is unlikely to happen but nobody knows what might happen in future.

I am no expert in Starfleet or Federation paperwork (well, probably more likely files in some computer system) but I can imagine that captains write mission reports and these get filed somewhere for future reference. That means there would be written records, highly classified, but they would exist.

 

[Marie1]

I just found something nasty in Sedin's personality... I mean, the Caeliar in Columbia did some unpleasant things too- its "hunger" did- but not to the point that Sedin did. And she seemed cold and "ready" to go to lengths the other members of her people wouldn't. Though the fact she was trapped with the MACOs, knowing what they did, may have made the result worse, she may have justified that since they were *those* humans that it was justified...

But I do find the violence the MACOs were capable of to create a bit of culpability... not for "humanity" maybe but... I just don't consider the MACOs nor Sedin "innocent."

 

[Christopher]

Let me suggest an analogy. Suppose a US passenger jet crashes, and someone comes up to the NTSB and alleges that it was the result of terrorists using some new undetectable technology. But the investigators find no evidence to support this, and the witness disappears and can't be found. It's just an unsubstantiated claim, one that would cause a panic or desire for retaliation that might be completely unjustified. In those circumstances, would it be responsible to announce that unproven and inflammatory hypothesis to the general public? Or would it be wiser to wait and say nothing until the investigation turned up something tangible?

That's what I'm talking about. Not covering up a known fact, but choosing not to broadcast an unproven hypothesis that might not be true at all, at least as far as Bacco and her people can discern. You can't even call it a secret; from their perspective, it's merely an allegation.

If we are talking about official records here, I don`t think people would doubt the story.

Exactly. Official records of what? There's no hard evidence. It's pure hearsay.

I don`t think people like Picard, Riker and Dax (just to name a few more well known higher ranking Starfleet officers who know the truth) are "someone". If they would choose to go public with this story, proof or not, I am sure a lot of people would believe them. At the very least, a lot of people would ask questions and wonder how much of this story is true.

But it would be irresponsible for them to present it as fact when they have no proof. Besides, the "someone" in my analogy was Hernandez, or the "catomized" entity that purported to be Hernandez. To the captains and the rest of Starfleet, it's a hearsay account, one they can't verify. They may believe Hernandez, but they can't back up that belief. Both as servants of the Federation and servants of science, they wouldn't present hearsay as fact, not until or unless they could get independent verification.

I am no expert in Starfleet or Federation paperwork (well, probably more likely files in some computer system) but I can imagine that captains write mission reports and these get filed somewhere for future reference. That means there would be written records, highly classified, but they would exist.

I don't know why you're even saying this, since I never said the report wouldn't be filed. I said the account would be reported to their superiors as what it was, a hearsay account without a single shred of hard evidence to support it. You still have this false idea that I'm talking about hiding some deep, dark secret. I'm not. I'm saying that without hard evidence, a claim like this just isn't going to be given a lot of weight. Back to my analogy, if the NTSB investigators hear a rumor that the plane crash was caused by terrorists, of course they're going to report that rumor to their superiors and investigate the possibility. But if their investigation turns up no evidence to support that rumor, then they won't pass the rumor along to the public. They'll say the only responsible thing they can say, that there's no credible evidence of terrorist involvement. That's not keeping a secret, because for all they know, there's no secret to keep, just a rumor that didn't pan out.

 

[Turbo]

Here's another blame game I came up with tonight. Humanity didn't create the Borg. The Xindi did. If the Xindi had never attacked Earth, MACOs would never have been brought onboard Enterprise and Columbia, and therefore they wouldn't have been around to cause all this trouble with the timeline.

At some point you have to stop looking for someone to blame, and I think that only the Federation's enemies would use this against them even if it became public knowledge.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the Xindi had never attacked Earth, MACOs would never have been brought onboard Enterprise and Columbia

Maybe. Or perhaps they'd have wound up there anyway. There's other dangers out there; the Xindi were hardly the only reason a MACO detachment could have found its way onto Earth ships.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

The Romulans caused the damage to Columbia that lead them to the Caeliar in the first place. The Romulans are to blame for the borg. (Under the current strange thoughts)

 

[Christopher]

Here's another blame game I came up with tonight. Humanity didn't create the Borg. The Xindi did. If the Xindi had never attacked Earth, MACOs would never have been brought onboard Enterprise and Columbia, and therefore they wouldn't have been around to cause all this trouble with the timeline.

That doesn't make sense. The MACOs existed before the Xindi attack; they just weren't assigned to Enterprise's originally peaceful mission. Once the mission became military, the MACOs were added to the ship's complement. It stands to reason that even if the Xindi attack hadn't happened, then Enterprise and Columbia would've had MACOs assigned to them once the Romulan War began.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You forgot one question:

If you are an Earth human, would you blame *yourself* for the Borg? Meaning, would you feel any sort of guilt or remorse that your fellow humans did this?

No. Why would it? I didn't do it, nor did I contribute to the sociological conditions that gave rise to the individuals who were involved in the events, what with my having been born 200 years after Columbia's launch.

I mean, you might as well ask if I feel guilty that some of my ancestors owned slaves. No, I don't, sorry. I feel slightly embarrassed, but not guilty.

As for the idea of the information about the alleged origin of the Borg getting out...

I would say that it should be classified for about twenty-five to fifty years, and then, at that point, the information should be released.

If Karl Graylock or Kiona Thayer have any living descendants in the 24th century...I pray they never find out.

 

[Sci]

You forgot one question:

If you are an Earth human, would you blame *yourself* for the Borg? Meaning, would you feel any sort of guilt or remorse that your fellow humans did this?

No. Why would it? I didn't do it, nor did I contribute to the sociological conditions that gave rise to the individuals who were involved in the events, what with my having been born 200 years after Columbia's launch.

I mean, you might as well ask if I feel guilty that some of my ancestors owned slaves. No, I don't, sorry. I feel slightly embarrassed, but not guilty.

As for the idea of the information about the alleged origin of the Borg getting out...

I would say that it should be classified for about twenty-five to fifty years, and then, at that point, the information should be released.

If Karl Graylock or Kiona Thayer have any living descendants in the 24th century...I pray they never find out.

*shrugs* I don't think that any potential descendent Graylocks or Thayers or Pembletons have anything to feel ashamed about. Their ancestors were simply the first persons to fall victim to the Borg in the form of Sedin of the Caeliar.

 

[dru]

If you were a Federation member would you blame Earth for the Borg?

Possibly.

If you were a friendly power (Klingon, Imperial Romulan State) would you blame Earth for the Borg?

Didn't the Romulans have off-screen problems with the Borg before Enterprise encountered them in Q Who?

If you were an enemy power (Romulan Star Empire, Tholians) would you blame Earth for the Borg?

Wouldn't care.

 

[Sci]

If you were a Federation member would you blame Earth for the Borg?

Possibly.

Wouldn't it make more sense to blame Sedin?

 

[Marie1]

^ I feel I have to hold the MACOs responsible too, and for pacifists, there's no telling what the actions of the MACOs did to Sedin's mind... plus the humans *walked back* to her...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If you were a Federation member would you blame Earth for the Borg?

Possibly.

Wouldn't it make more sense to blame Sedin?

She's not *around* to blame. We, the readers, could blame Sedin, but none of the other major powers will ever know she existed in the first place. Hell, they don't even know about the Caeliar in general. So what's the next convenient target for them to pick?

As for the MACOS...meh. It's not their fault. As has already been pointed out, they were captives of the Caeliar, who had every right to try and escape. If Sedin did what she did because of them, well, that's Sedin's fault for being xenophobic and insane, and no one else's. The Caeliar should have known what might happen when they hold humans prisoner.

I don't think that any potential descendent Graylocks or Thayers or Pembletons have anything to feel ashamed about. Their ancestors were simply the first persons to fall victim to the Borg in the form of Sedin of the Caeliar.

That's one way of looking at it, yes. It's definitely more complicated than simply being the descendants of the worst serial killers in history (although that is *also* a factor, albeit accidental).

 

[Stephen!]

Here's another blame game I came up with tonight. Humanity didn't create the Borg. The Xindi did.

Exactly what I was thinking a few weeks ago
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2351263&postcount=172

 

[rfmcdpei]

I was inspired by a post in the Lost Souls discussion thread to make this post. In the Destiny trilogy we learned that humanity was to blame for the Borg threat. The question is:

- If you were a Federation member would you blame Earth for the Borg?

More importantly, would you blame Canadians for the Borg? Pembleton was a Canadian, after all, and depending on whether or not 22nd century Québec is still part of Canada so was Thayer.

If two of the three humans responsible for unleashing the Borg on the Galaxy, at an untold cost to human lives, are Canadians, what does this mean for 24th century Canadians and Canadians' descendants? Should they feel guilty? Will they be blamed by other humans? Will the Nausicaans go on the hunt for wearings of the maple leaf and the fleur-de-lis?

;-)

 

[Marie1]

As a Canadian, I declare that I take full responsibility for the Borg, but must say I do not feel guilty as I enjoyed it profoundly, every second of the day for thousands of years, and would not have let it stop... were I not distracted by a bunch of guys in the GQ in tight black and gray pants...

My plan is to go to a MU where the Caeliar didn't listen to Hernandez, bring over their Borg to the RU, so I can continue watching with sadistic pleasure. I'm going to split it so the DQ gets the BQ and the GQ gets the AQ... this is gonna be sweet... Muhuhahahaha!!!!

 

[William Leisner]

Times have changed
The Borg are getting worse
They don't want to assimilate
They want us all packed in a hearse!
Should we blame the Caeliar?
Or should we blame UESPA?
Or the crew of the Columbia?
No! Blame Canada! Blame Canada!

 

[Sci]

Times have changed
The Borg are getting worse
They don't want to assimilate
They want us all packed in a hearse!
Should we blame the Caeliar?
Or should we blame UESPA?
Or the crew of the Columbia?
No! Blame Canada! Blame Canada!

Don't blame me!
Sedin put George in a morge!
He landed on Arehaz,
And then became the first of Borg!

And poor Kiona,
Her foot was abated!
And now she tells me, "You will be assimilated!"

Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
It seems Sedin's just gone wrong
Since Canada came along!
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
They're not even a real country anyway!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Here's another blame game I came up with tonight. Humanity didn't create the Borg. The Xindi did. If the Xindi had never attacked Earth, MACOs would never have been brought onboard Enterprise and Columbia, and therefore they wouldn't have been around to cause all this trouble with the timeline.

That doesn't make sense. The MACOs existed before the Xindi attack; they just weren't assigned to Enterprise's originally peaceful mission. Once the mission became military, the MACOs were added to the ship's complement. It stands to reason that even if the Xindi attack hadn't happened, then Enterprise and Columbia would've had MACOs assigned to them once the Romulan War began.

Actually The MACOs weren't assigned to Enterprise Archer just requested that a team be aboard the Enterprise for the mission into the Expanse, then after Enterprise returned home he sugested that Hernandez consider requesting a MACO team for Columbia.

 

[Christopher]

^^Either way, I see no reason to doubt that once the Earth-Romulan War began, the MACOs wouldn't have ended up assigned to Starfleet vessels in response, even if Archer hadn't set the precedent during the Xindi crisis. I mean, the MACOs are combat troops, and the NX-class vessels are the fastest ships Earth has. I can't imagine them not being put together during an ongoing interstellar war.