Would you blame humanity? (DESTINY SPOILERS)

[nx1701g]

I was inspired by a post in the Lost Souls discussion thread to make this post. In the Destiny trilogy we learned that humanity was to blame for the Borg threat. The question is:

- If you were a Federation member would you blame Earth for the Borg?

- If you were a friendly power (Klingon, Imperial Romulan State) would you blame Earth for the Borg?

- If you were an enemy power (Romulan Star Empire, Tholians) would you blame Earth for the Borg?

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

Regardless if I was with or against the Federation, if I were told the full story of the Caeliar, humans, and the origin of the Borg, I would think that it was one freakin' weird coincidence. After some reflection though I would amend that it was almost just that such a force of evil was born of such weird circumstances. I might be upset as an initial reaction, but it would pass.

Unless, of course, I was a Tellarite. Then I would never cease to complain about it.

 

[LightningStorm]

No - it's not their fault.
No - it's not their fault.
Yes - it's not their fault, but it'd give me an excuse to attack them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You forgot one question:

If you are an Earth human, would you blame *yourself* for the Borg? Meaning, would you feel any sort of guilt or remorse that your fellow humans did this?

 

[nx1701g]

^ Apologies

 

[JD]

No - it's not their fault.
No - it's not their fault.
Yes - it's not their fault, but it'd give me an excuse to attack them.

That's sounds pretty good to me too.

 

[Christopher]

The answer to all these question is no. Because, as was pointed out in the other thread, hardly anybody knows that humans were involved in the creation of the Borg. Just because we readers got to witness it doesn't mean it's going to be known or verifiable within the fictional universe. Picard, Riker, and Dax only have Hernandez's claim that this is what happened, and they have no way of proving it. Odds are it won't even get out to the public or even to the majority of people in Starfleet. At worst, it would be a rumor, an unsubstantiated claim. Most people would probably dismiss it as an insane conspiracy theory. After all, most ordinary people in the galaxy don't deal with time travel or superbeings or cutting-edge weirdness the way Starfleet officers do; they probably wouldn't believe or understand the idea that a race thousands of years old descended from people who lived a couple of centuries before.

Anyway, it wasn't "humanity" that was responsible for the Borg threat. It was a few MACOs who made a bad decision that led to a series of increasingly tragic accidents that ultimately culminated in the rise of the Borg. It would require an insane, militant degree of racism to blame an entire species for the unintended consequences of the actions of a few of its members. Anyone who'd think that way would just be using it as an excuse for a pre-existing hatred of humanity.

Really, the whole premise is bizarre. And we covered all this in the other thread. What's the point of starting a separate thread just to rehash a discussion that's already been explored pretty thoroughly?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It would require an insane, militant degree of racism to blame an entire species for the unintended consequences of the actions of a few of its members. Anyone who'd think that way would just be using it as an excuse for a pre-existing hatred of humanity.

Oh yes, and we've absolutely never seen *that* before, even in Trek.

 

[Marie1]

I think we need a "partial blame" option- I consider it partly the humans fault, partly a Caeliar's fault. But we need to wonder how many other people/caeliar would do what was done if they had the option...

But that being said, its still the fault of a few members of those two groups, not the whole.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Nope. It was Sedin who created the Borg. As questionable as the humans actions may have been, they had nothing to do with the creation of the collective.

 

[Marie1]

But for all we know, she was reasonably nice before she became embittered by what people were capable of, and decided that if the universe was filled with violent, omnivorous people capable of killing there own that it was okay to use them keep herself alive. And lets not forget why there were people there in Mantilis in the first place for her use- she wouldn't have gotten anywhere without them.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

My understanding is that Sedin was definitely not responsible for her actions and acted purely on instinct. The humans involved were nothing else to her in that situation than a means of survival and tools, early building blocks for the start of the collective.

Nobody was responsible. What happened was a tragic accident. I wouldn`t blame the Caeliar, Sedin, the humans Sedin used or humanity itself.

Coming back to what Christopher said, I doubt it that the truth will be kept secret within the top leadership of Starfleet. I am sure President Bacco will learn the truth and she will likely hand pick a few people she trusts enough to handle this information responsibly. I very much disagree with it that the true origin of the Borg should be kept out of history and be forgotten in time. Not only does it feel morally wrong, losing this information would also mean that the opportunity to learn from this part of history will be lost and that there is valuable information missing that could have saved a lot of lives.

Maybe it is indeed unlikely that this secret comes out. I think it is more likely that the secret about the end of Bacco`s predecessor might come out than this one but I would not say that it is impossible. What would happen? I think the vast majority of people would not blame anybody for this, they would just be sad and shocked by the true story behind the Borg. If we are talking about official records here, I don`t think people would doubt the story. Ordinary people are not experiencing these events themselves but I am sure they are not ignorant of what is going on. I am sure they know about the Q, for example, they know about advanced civilizations.

A tiny minority is all it takes in order to become a big problem. Here in the real world people have been harmed over the naming of a teddy bear and tasteless cartoons, just giving two examples. Fanatics would have much more ammunition with what happened in Destiny.

 

[Lonemagpie]

No - it's not their fault.
No - it's not their fault.
Yes - it's not their fault, but it'd give me an excuse to attack them.

Ditto

 

[-Brett-]

The Borg originated with three humans and one Caeliar. Even then, whether any of those four individuals could really be faulted for it is questionable. Blaming the entirety of either species would be batshit insane.

If this Borg origin story ever became public in the Star Trek universe, the only people who would blame humanity are the ones that already had an axe to grind with it.

 

[Christopher]

My understanding is that Sedin was definitely not responsible for her actions and acted purely on instinct. The humans involved were nothing else to her in that situation than a means of survival and tools, early building blocks for the start of the collective.

That's true. Sedin's mind was all but gone; only raw survival instinct and hunger remained. The emergence of the Borg was a result of a tragic accident, just as you say.

Coming back to what Christopher said, I doubt it that the truth will be kept secret within the top leadership of Starfleet. I am sure President Bacco will learn the truth and she will likely hand pick a few people she trusts enough to handle this information responsibly. I very much disagree with it that the true origin of the Borg should be kept out of history and be forgotten in time. Not only does it feel morally wrong, losing this information would also mean that the opportunity to learn from this part of history will be lost and that there is valuable information missing that could have saved a lot of lives.

I'm not proposing a massive coverup or anything. I just don't think there's really anything to cover up. Again, we as readers, watching from an omniscient point of view, "know" this to be what happened, but as far as anyone other than Hernandez and the Caeliar themselves is concerned, it's purely hearsay. It's a story that a few captains have been told, with no way to confirm it. It's not falsifiable, to use the scientific term, so as far as the government or Starfleet is concerned, it's just an allegation.

Let me suggest an analogy. Suppose a US passenger jet crashes, and someone comes up to the NTSB and alleges that it was the result of terrorists using some new undetectable technology. But the investigators find no evidence to support this, and the witness disappears and can't be found. It's just an unsubstantiated claim, one that would cause a panic or desire for retaliation that might be completely unjustified. In those circumstances, would it be responsible to announce that unproven and inflammatory hypothesis to the general public? Or would it be wiser to wait and say nothing until the investigation turned up something tangible?

That's what I'm talking about. Not covering up a known fact, but choosing not to broadcast an unproven hypothesis that might not be true at all, at least as far as Bacco and her people can discern. You can't even call it a secret; from their perspective, it's merely an allegation.

If we are talking about official records here, I don`t think people would doubt the story.

Exactly. Official records of what? There's no hard evidence. It's pure hearsay.

 

[Herbert1]

The Klingons didn't declare war or hold Earth or humanity responsible for V'ger or hold them responsible for the loss of three battlecruisers. No other races declared vengence on Earth or humanity for V'ger If we are to believe that all the images of planets etc. in the memory chamber were "digitized" from original interstellar bodies, vehicles etc. and the originals were destroyed in the digitizing process. V'ger would have cut a swath of destruction over several galaxies during its journey. Perhaps anihilating entire races and cultures.

So why do some of us believe that the same is true for the origins of the Borg?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Klingons didn't declare war or hold Earth or humanity responsible for V'ger or hold them responsible for the loss of three battlecruisers.

Then again, the Klingons could have called that an example of honorable combat. From their perspective, their ships fired at V'Ger, who fired back and destroyed them. It's par for the course in Klingon society.

No other races declared vengence on Earth or humanity for V'ger If we are to believe that all the images of planets etc. in the memory chamber were "digitized" from original interstellar bodies, vehicles etc. and the originals were destroyed in the digitizing process, V'ger would have cut a swath of destruction over several galaxies during its journey.

Maybe V'Ger just didn't leave any witnesses.

So why do some of us believe that the same is true for the origins of the Borg?

Anything is possible.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

My understanding is that Sedin was definitely not responsible for her actions and acted purely on instinct. The humans involved were nothing else to her in that situation than a means of survival and tools, early building blocks for the start of the collective.

That's true. Sedin's mind was all but gone; only raw survival instinct and hunger remained. The emergence of the Borg was a result of a tragic accident, just as you say.

I've no idea whether Lexerst (sp?), when pushed far enough, would have eventually resorted to the same methods as Sedin (or even the Caeliar from GoN) in order to survive but the book implied that Sedin was much more ruthless and thus more likely to ignore the rules of Caeliar morality when faced with the remaining Columbia crew members. That's why when Sedin appeared before them, ghostly and alone, I was much more scared for these humans than had it been Lex.

Honestly though, this was a no-win situation, and there was no way anyone stranded on that planet, Human or Caeliar, could realise that a few individuals struggling to survive in the barren, icy wasteland of an alien world would become the origin of a vast, soulless empire intent on assimilation and annihilation.

 

[Sci]

You forgot one question:

If you are an Earth human, would you blame *yourself* for the Borg? Meaning, would you feel any sort of guilt or remorse that your fellow humans did this?

No. Why would it? I didn't do it, nor did I contribute to the sociological conditions that gave rise to the individuals who were involved in the events, what with my having been born 200 years after Columbia's launch.

I mean, you might as well ask if I feel guilty that some of my ancestors owned slaves. No, I don't, sorry. I feel slightly embarrassed, but not guilty.

As for the idea of the information about the alleged origin of the Borg getting out...

I would say that it should be classified for about twenty-five to fifty years, and then, at that point, the information should be released.

 

[Turbo]

No - it's not their fault.
No - it's not their fault.
Yes - it's not their fault, but it'd give me an excuse to attack them.

Exactly how I voted. (Yay, I don't have to type it all out!)