Aftermath of Destiny (SPOILERS)

[Christopher]

Haven't a few wars over the centuries been fought over barren waste lands? Although admittedly, they did involve resources at some level.

Or territory. Those barren lands have often been important because of their position, their value as, say, a route of travel and trade between two civilizations. The trans-Saharan trade route, for instance, was vital to Europe in building its wealth and power, since so much of that wealth came from the gold mines of West African empires.

But the abandoned Borg territory is mostly going to be so huge that powers on opposite ends of it may not even be aware of each other's existence. It would probably take generations for any trade routes across that wasteland to be established in the first place.

I wondered about that when "Scorpion" Part 2 aired. Janeway talks about how a weapon of mass destruction would endanger innocent worlds. Although it seems like there wouldn't be any left in Borg space anyway.

I figured Janeway's concern was for the inhabited worlds on the borders of Borg territory. There must've been tens of thousands of them at least.

Even if the former Borg systems in the Delta Quadrant are stripped and useless it seems like there would still be a lot of chaos. The major power of the quadrant is gone, somebody is going to want to fill that role.

Oh, definitely. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a number of ways in which the sudden absence of the Borg could be politically, socially, economically, or otherwise destabilizing to countless civilizations. I just think the specific idea of a "scramble" for former Borg territory wouldn't be one of them.

I suppose the Vidiens (sp?) are out of the picture since the phage has been cured. The Hirogen are probably taking advantage of the chaos with their usual hunting hijinx. The Kazon just don't have the tech to pull it off. The Voth seem like the most likely candidate to become the new major power there. Of course there are many races there that we never got to see..who knows?

The Kazon aren't particularly close to Borg territory anyway. With their technology, it's many years away.

As for the Voth, they're already a major power when they choose to be. But they have their own approach to wielding power, as I've touched on in Places of Exile and "Brief Candle."

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Cool I haven't read Places of Exile or Brief Candle yet.. Oh my aching 'to read' list! Always growing!

 

[SeerSGB]

Never know, one of the old powers mind reascend to the front of the pack. Say the Vaadwaur for example.

 

[Silversmok3]

Here's my take on life post-Borg.

Alpha Quadrant-

The major powers(Federation,Cardassian Union,Klingon Empire,both Romulan Governments) will be as a group too busy with humanitarian aid efforts to wage war,politiking or territorial ambitions.

This and the depeletion of their starships mean the smaller governments like the Breen and Gorn can make bigger moves now without AS much of a retaliation threat from the bigger powers.

I'd imagine there's gonna be a small shortage of food,supplies and building materials ,which combined with depleted fleet strength will generate a source of tension,and starving worlds previously un-aligned with the UFP will either turn to the pen-or sword to secure resources.



Technology advances will be made from lessons lerned fighting the Borg and new ships will (in time ) be built,both for exporation and tactical missions.

Delta Quadrant-

The Borg have done their damage already here,and with most of the constituent races in their territory having been assimilated there won't be anyone left in charge .

The neigboring powers won't know the Borg have been neutralized,not right away. I know if my world were close to Borg space I wouldn't be in a rush to go flying through deadly space .

It'll take months,probably years for any organized governments in the Delta Quad to realize the Borg are gone for good ,and perhaps in that time the planets' ecosystem will have recovered by that time to be worth fighting over...but even then,Borg space is vast,and it will be a LONG while before that quadrant gets crowded enough to fight over.


It may even be safe to consider a Starfleet exploration ship(slipstream druve,anyone?) to chart all the light years Voyager skipped and to explore that area which is now not so lethal.

 

[Marie1]

^ This is true, I anticipate, in reality, a bunch of smaller groups growing and intertwining...

The thing that gets me is that there was so much in the DQ despite the fact that the Borg were there, many ships, ports, inhabited worlds, despite the Borg... so they'll probably just breathe easier.

Mind you, it'd be naive on my part to think someone or a lot of groups won't take advantage of removal of the Borg. I imagine a lot of former Borg planets have at least agricultural uses...

Best make sure my Dominion shipyards are at full capacity... oh wait, they already are... (*evil laugh*)

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Voyager kind of gives us the idea that the Borg simply leave certain cultures alone because they are too primitive to be bothered with or just don't have anything worth taking. Seems to me that there could still be a good deal of discoveries to be made and resources to exploit in Borg space. Just because the Borg aren't interested doesn't mean others won't be. Also consider all of the archaeological finds to be considered. The Borg don't destroy things for no reason (well not until Destiny anyway). There are probably the ruins of countless cultures waiting to be studied.

Hmm, something else just came to me. The name of the ep. escapes me right now, but what about that group of Borg that formed their own small collective by using Chakotay? They weren't a part of the collective anymore, but did they still have catoms in their bodies? I wonder what happened to them after Destiny?

 

[Christopher]

^^Well, none of the Borg really had catoms in their bodies; rather, Borg nanoprobes were a degenerate, dumbed-down form of what had once been catoms. Aside from that, though, it's a good question: did the Caeliar's, err, ascension of the Borg extend to offshoots like the Borg Cooperative, Hugh's Liberated, or the Unimatrix Zero resistance? Maybe someday we'll find out...

 

[casey]

^^Well, none of the Borg really had catoms in their bodies; rather, Borg nanoprobes were a degenerate, dumbed-down form of what had once been catoms. Aside from that, though, it's a good question: did the Caeliar's, err, ascension of the Borg extend to offshoots like the Borg Cooperative, Hugh's Liberated, or the Unimatrix Zero resistance? Maybe someday we'll find out...

My initial thought is that it wouldn't extend to them, particularly Hugh's people, as they seem to have transcended the hunger on their own and are no longer driven by it.

 

[Stevil2001]

Can I just say that I've always found the name "Borg Cooperative" a little dopey? It sounds like the place I buy my groceries.


"Guys, I'm gonna pop out to the co-op and pick up some nanoprobes, okay?"
"Oh man, don't forget your card. You know what those ex-drones are like when you leave it at home..."

 

[Sci]

^^Well, none of the Borg really had catoms in their bodies; rather, Borg nanoprobes were a degenerate, dumbed-down form of what had once been catoms. Aside from that, though, it's a good question: did the Caeliar's, err, ascension of the Borg extend to offshoots like the Borg Cooperative, Hugh's Liberated, or the Unimatrix Zero resistance? Maybe someday we'll find out...

My initial thought is that it wouldn't extend to them, particularly Hugh's people, as they seem to have transcended the hunger on their own and are no longer driven by it.

Well, I think the thing to remember is that "the hunger" -- that is, the driving motivation behind the Collective (that is to say, Sedin) -- was a part of the Collective consciousness, not a part of the nanoprobes themselves.

 

[casey]

^^Well, none of the Borg really had catoms in their bodies; rather, Borg nanoprobes were a degenerate, dumbed-down form of what had once been catoms. Aside from that, though, it's a good question: did the Caeliar's, err, ascension of the Borg extend to offshoots like the Borg Cooperative, Hugh's Liberated, or the Unimatrix Zero resistance? Maybe someday we'll find out...

My initial thought is that it wouldn't extend to them, particularly Hugh's people, as they seem to have transcended the hunger on their own and are no longer driven by it.

Well, I think the thing to remember is that "the hunger" -- that is, the driving motivation behind the Collective (that is to say, Sedin) -- was a part of the Collective consciousness, not a part of the nanoprobes themselves.

Exactly, which since Hugh's group has transcended the Collective (with a capital c) and now have their own collective (little c) I would think they wouldn't all that effected.

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

Are we even 100% certain that the dominion still exists as such? We're still several years after the last DS9 novel, and the last time we saw the Founders and Dominion, things were a bit shaken up, y'know?

 

[Silversmok3]

Are we even 100% certain that the dominion still exists as such? We're still several years after the last DS9 novel, and the last time we saw the Founders and Dominion, things were a bit shaken up, y'know?

The Dominion are in the Gamma quadrant.There's no info I know of that points to them being aware of or even caring about Borg in the Delta Quadrant.

In any case,Hugh 'probably' was released with his separatist cohorts from the subconcious bond that seems to linger even in Borg who quit the collective.Remember in Destiny Picard was restored to his pre-Locutus ID,and Annika (formerly 7 of 9)regained her human identity.

So I'd imagine the 'Hugh' and Co. we met could be different people now after the Change restored their pre-assimilation identities.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

So I'd imagine the 'Hugh' and Co. we met could be different people now after the Change restored their pre-assimilation identities.

If all of them had such identities to begin with. I thought it was establish that not all Borg were assimilated?

 

[Judge King]

Neelix was probably assimilated by the Borg when he went looking for Voyager because they hadn't contacted the next day like Seven promised. He finds a Borg Cube and it assimilates him.

 

[Brit]

I suppose the Vidiens (sp?) are out of the picture since the phage has been cured. The Hirogen are probably taking advantage of the chaos with their usual hunting hijinx. The Kazon just don't have the tech to pull it off. The Voth seem like the most likely candidate to become the new major power there. Of course there are many races there that we never got to see..who knows?

I don’t think Vidiia would be in any condition to be a threat to anyone, can you imagine what happened after they paid “Think Tank” for their cure. The cost was probably astronomical, not to mention the aftermath. Think about 2000 years with a Phage driven economy and suddenly there is no more Phage. Their economy had to collapse and with it Vidiian society.

The major powers(Federation,Cardassian Union,Klingon Empire,both Romulan Governments) will be as a group too busy with humanitarian aid efforts to wage war,politiking or territorial ambitions.

Same problem with Cardassia, no economy to support any kind of power play, and the Romulan are as always a wild card. Cardassia was devastated by the Dominion, millions upon millions of people killed there is no way that they can be a power.

Building worlds means that they have to work, if someone is going to suspend their disbelief for a novel then there has to be some basic reality. Now if there was some civilization in the Delta Quadrant that could say salvage the Borg transwarp system, someone like the Devore or even maybe the Voth. Then you might be going somewhere.

Brit

 

[Sci]

The major powers(Federation,Cardassian Union,Klingon Empire,both Romulan Governments) will be as a group too busy with humanitarian aid efforts to wage war,politiking or territorial ambitions.

Same problem with Cardassia, no economy to support any kind of power play, and the Romulan are as always a wild card. Cardassia was devastated by the Dominion, millions upon millions of people killed there is no way that they can be a power.

Erm, sort of?

If you read Mere Mortals, one of the things that becomes clear is that whilst the Cardassian Union is no longer a military or economic power, it seems to still retain a great deal of prestige and deference from the other minor powers of local space -- the Talarians, the Breen, the Tzenkethi, the Gorn, the Tholians, the Ferengi -- presumably because of their former status as serious rivals to the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans for interstellar power. Most of the smaller state ended up following the Cardassian Union's lead in allying with the Federation. And a lot of that is due to the influence of Elim Garak.

The other thing is that as of 2381, they're starting to rebuild. They're not up there yet, they're still dependent on Federation aide -- but there's a new Castellan in power, and it's pretty clear that the Cardassians are angling for self-sufficiency as soon as possible, and that they may not necessarily be on the Federation's side once they get back on their feet.

To make a real-world comparison, I would say that the Cardassian Union as of 2381 might be compared to the Russian Federation in 2000 upon the ascension of Vladimir Putin: Not back on its feet yet, but on its way.

 

[Brit]

The major powers(Federation,Cardassian Union,Klingon Empire,both Romulan Governments) will be as a group too busy with humanitarian aid efforts to wage war,politiking or territorial ambitions.

Same problem with Cardassia, no economy to support any kind of power play, and the Romulan are as always a wild card. Cardassia was devastated by the Dominion, millions upon millions of people killed there is no way that they can be a power.

To make a real-world comparison, I would say that the Cardassian Union as of 2381 might be compared to the Russian Federation in 2000 upon the ascension of Vladimir Putin: Not back on its feet yet, but on its way.

That's the problem with some novels and incomplete world building, I can't suspend my disbelief. Russia at least has citizens to build with, Cardassia lost over eight hundred million people, and all the allies in the universe can't overcome that deficit.

Saying what if is easy, coming up with a logical basis for what if is difficult.

Brit

 

[Sci]

Same problem with Cardassia, no economy to support any kind of power play, and the Romulan are as always a wild card. Cardassia was devastated by the Dominion, millions upon millions of people killed there is no way that they can be a power.

To make a real-world comparison, I would say that the Cardassian Union as of 2381 might be compared to the Russian Federation in 2000 upon the ascension of Vladimir Putin: Not back on its feet yet, but on its way.

That's the problem with some novels and incomplete world building, I can't suspend my disbelief. Russia at least has citizens to build with, Cardassia lost over eight hundred million people, and all the allies in the universe can't overcome that deficit.

Saying what if is easy, coming up with a logical basis for what if is difficult.

Brit

Listen, you haven't even read the damn things, so I'm not sure how you can just throw that out the window there -- or, for that matter, accuse them of incomplete world-building.

Read A Stitch in Time by Andrew J. Robinson (yes, THE Andrew J. Robinson). Read Avatar, Books I & II by S.D. Perry. Read Gateways: Demons of Air and Darkness by Keith R.A. DeCandido. Read the Mission: Gamma books by David R. George III, Heather Jarman, Michael A. Martin & Andy Mangels, and Robert Simpson. Read Unity by S.D. Perry. Read Cardassia: The Lotus Flower by Una McCormack in Worlds of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Vol. I. Read "The Calling" by Andrew J. Robinson in Prophecy and Change. Read Warpath by David Mack and Fearful Symmetry by Olivia Wood. Read Articles of the Federation by Keith R.A. DeCandido.

And for historical background, read Terok Nor: Day of the Vipers by James Swallow, The Lost Era: The Art of the Impossible by Keith R.A. DeCandido, Terok Nor: Night of the Wolves and Terok Nor: Dawn of the Eagles by S.D. Perry and Britta Denison. And then, on top of that, read Destiny: Mere Mortals by David Mack.

Then, once you've done all that, then, by all means, accuse Pocket Books of insufficient world-building and of unrealistically depicting the rebuilding of Cardassia. But until then, you are speaking out of ignorance and making inaccurate assumptions about the implications of my comparison.

My comparison was not meant to be exact. Rather, it was meant to suggest an analogy: A former power rebuilding itself, and starting -- starting -- to regain some steam upon the assumption of power by a new leader who is less friendly to the democratic powers.

Let me assure you, Cardassia is still muchly in ruins. Articles of the Federation, set a year before Destiny, contains a passage describing much of the planet as being little more than rubble, with orphans living in the streets and a government that's incapable of standing on its own. No one's saying that Cardassia has become a major power again.

What I talked about above was political prestige, and much of it a matter more of force of will from Garak and the new Castellan rather than as a result of any major economic or military recovery.

 

[Brit]

And again I see that if I don't agree then I haven't read something because everyone knows that this person is right and therefore I should have no opinion. Don't assume that just because I don't agree that it means that I have not read anything, and therefore don't know what I am talking about.

I know far more than you think and I don't accuse you of not reading or thinking just because I don't agree with you.

Brit