Okay, I know I'm asking for trouble, but: recommend comics?

[Supernova]

Okay, I was passing through New Orleans this morning on the way home from a friend's house and saw a new Borders kinda hidden on St. Charles. Anyway, I spent a few hours there and before leaving, remembered this thread. I found and picked up the first volume of All-Star Superman and The Watchman. I'm going to be pretty busy the next few days, but when I get a chance, I'll sit down and dive in. They had a lot of other crap there, lots of that Japanese junk and a lot of Star Wars and Spider-Man stuff. Not sure what my third choice is going to be. Oh yea! I forgot...I was at Blockbuster last night and saw this Justice League New Frontiers or something DVD. I read the back and it mentioned it was based on a comic book collection. I don't think anybody mentioned that one. What's the deal with that one? -Dan

 

[Ben Sisko3]

Oh yea! I forgot...I was at Blockbuster last night and saw this Justice League New Frontiers or something DVD. I read the back and it mentioned it was based on a comic book collection. I don't think anybody mentioned that one. What's the deal with that one? -Dan

I did, actually. The comic is a two-volume epic called DC: The New Frontier. Give it a look. It's a 1950s-set period piece about how superheroes and McCarthyism mix about as well as bullets and flesh.

 

[Ben Sisko3]

To each his own, I guess. Although Anansi Boys is fairly recent isn't it? I quite enjoyed American Gods though.

1602 is an epic win for those intimately familiar with the Marvel Universe.

 

[Cicero]

To each his own, I guess. Although Anansi Boys is fairly recent isn't it? I quite enjoyed American Gods though.

1602 is an epic win for those intimately familiar with the Marvel Universe.

1602 was one of Gaiman's best works (my complaints about content and tone don't apply here), but it suffered from both structural problems and being a story which was easy to forecast once all the pieces were revealed. It would probably have best been left separate from the Marvel universe. The world itself is fascinating, but the main story featuring it was poorly resolved.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I thought Sandman was fairly poorly written. It's derivative, sexist, self-indulgent, and considers itself much more intelligence than it really is.

I reject this criticism from someone who selected "Cicero" as their username when signing up for TrekBBS, then mangles their English in the next sentence.

Also, you recommended Batman: Hush. Recommending anything written by Jeph Loeb over the general works of Gaiman is ludicrous. Plus, how the heck can you call Sandman self-indulgent, then recommend Hush? Most of the villains are only included because Loeb wanted to see Jim Lee draw them.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

It's too bad but the Dreamwave and Devil Due Transformers and GI Joe comics back in the 90s were fairly well done, especially if you liked Transformers and GI Joe. Transformers was very in depth and had a lot of cameos by characters that only showed up in the comics.

The ending to the arcs were a tad rushed but things like the War Within were simply grand.

IDW makes some good comics, except their artwork looks terrible and very -- hard to depict. I liked the Megatron Origin story but the artwork needed a lot of help.

 

[Mistral]

It's late and I'm not reading this thread through right now-so:

Marvels
Jack Kirby's original Fourth World titles:
Kammandi
Forever People
OMAC
New Gods
Superman's Friend, Jimmy Olsen

Watchmen(I know-somebody must have posted it)

Killing Joke

Dark Knight Returns

GL/GA heroin story

Death of Superman

THE GUN- Spiderman story

Winter-Batman stand-alone issue

Oh, crap, are you kidding me-you actually put this up? OP, I'll get back to you....

 

[Ben Sisko3]

Also, you recommended Batman: Hush. Recommending anything written by Jeph Loeb over the general works of Gaiman is ludicrous. Plus, how the heck can you call Sandman self-indulgent, then recommend Hush? Most of the villains are only included because Loeb wanted to see Jim Lee draw them.

Well said, Spiff.

 

[coolghoul]

As somebody who kinda likes Hush (and adores the Absolute edition), may I just state that Loeb is perfectly justified in going thru Batman's who's who to get Jim Lee to draw it.

Hush has Catwoman (yum), Poison Ivy (yum yum), Lois (yum yum yum), Harley Quin (yum yum yum), Talia (yum yum), Lady Shiva (yum), Leslie Thompkins (yu... what am I doing??!), Huntress, Oracle, Robin (Tim Drake), Clayface, Robin (Jason Todd - in a manner of speaking), Two Face, Joker, Nightwing (Dick Grayson), Killer Croc, Scarecrow, R'as Al Ghul, Superman, Lex Luthor. Man - that's a huge cast of characters! And all in Jim Lee pencils! Loeb would have been a saint if he had resisted the temptation.

All that and the overall story still hangs together (might not be great but it still makes pretty good sense) and I think Hush is now an established Bat-villain in his own right just like the 90s gave us Bane.

 

[misskim86]

Well I just finished Y: The Last Man and it's a great comnic, highly recommended. Made me cry in the end

 

[Ben Sisko3]

Well I just finished Y: The Last Man and it's a great comnic, highly recommended. Made me cry in the end

I recall welling up with tears at least three times in the last 15 pages or so. Amazing stuff.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Guy Gardener said:
Sandman is for girls and people who throw like girls or have to wear black nail polish. Waxing on poetically mastibatorially.

Sandman is indeed for girls - that's why it's one of the most celebrated comics series out there. See, we actually like things such as character, plots, motifs, thematics, stylistics, and the other elements from which literature is made.

Go knock something over with your penis. Leave the reading to us. The writing too please. ("mastibatorially"? Were you going for some variation of "masturbate" there?)

I thought Sandman was fairly poorly written. It's derivative, sexist, self-indulgent, and considers itself much more intelligence than it really is. It's also one of the most disturbing things I've read. I've yet to see anything written by Gaiman other than Murder Mysteries that wasn't sicking and depressing, though I gave up after Anansi Boys, and it's possible he's produced something good since, if unlikely.

Derivative of what? (I'm not saying that it isn't, but I'd be interested to know what specifically you are referring to.)

Sexist? How so? What characters and/ or situations are sexist?

How does a story consider itself more intelligent than it really is? Pretentiousness in literature generally means throwing around references or motifs just for window dressing, and Sandman's various literary and historical references are well-placed, thematically coherent and dramatically effective. And of course it's disturbing. It's of the horror genre.

 

[Ben Sisko3]

Sandman is indeed for girls - that's why it's one of the most celebrated comics series out there. See, we actually like things such as character, plots, motifs, thematics, stylistics, and the other elements from which literature is made.

Doe that mean I have to start buying pads now?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Guy Gardener said:
Sandman is for girls and people who throw like girls or have to wear black nail polish. Waxing on poetically mastibatorially.

Sandman is indeed for girls - that's why it's one of the most celebrated comics series out there. See, we actually like things such as character, plots, motifs, thematics, stylistics, and the other elements from which literature is made.

Go knock something over with your penis. Leave the reading to us. The writing too please. ("mastibatorially"? Were you going for some variation of "masturbate" there?)

I thought Sandman was fairly poorly written. It's derivative, sexist, self-indulgent, and considers itself much more intelligence than it really is. It's also one of the most disturbing things I've read. I've yet to see anything written by Gaiman other than Murder Mysteries that wasn't sicking and depressing, though I gave up after Anansi Boys, and it's possible he's produced something good since, if unlikely.

Derivative of what? (I'm not saying that it isn't, but I'd be interested to know what specifically you are referring to.)

Sexist? How so? What characters and/ or situations are sexist?

How does a story consider itself more intelligent than it really is? Pretentiousness in literature generally means throwing around references or motifs just for window dressing, and Sandman's various literary and historical references are well-placed, thematically coherent and dramatically effective. And of course it's disturbing. It's of the horror genre.

I tuck my penis in behind all the time like that bloke from Silence of the lambs when I want to enjoy a good girls own story, it needs a vacation now and then. By selfindulgent I'm guessing most people mean that Niel keeps trying to prove how clever he is, which he is, but it does get a little exhausting applauding Gaimen's every proof of his genius, especially since so much of it was tangential and had nothing to do with the thrust of the plot but merely tucked under the umbrella of entire book because the god of stories should tell stories. I have similar issues with Promethia.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Guy, you surprise me. I always knew you had it in you.

Gaiman is a rambling storyteller - he always has been, so I'm not sure the tangential nature of Sandman is a weakness so much as a stylistic choice. It may be one a particular reader doesn't enjoy, but it's not actually a bad choice, especially since motifs bind the whole thing pretty tightly together. And it is, quite explicitly, a story about stories, so the many stories are kind of necessary.

I still don't get the "exhausting applauding of Gaiman's every proof of his genius". I mean, I don't see how anything in the story is there purely for the author to prove how clever he is. The story ranges widely over time and space, but it is about the anthropomorphic elemental forces of the universe after all. If someone could give a specific example of what you're talking about it'd be easier to discuss, but right now it sounds like people are complaining that the books should be considered bad because they include a lot of literature and history, and I just don't see how that's a bad thing.

Promethea I think you may have a better case for that criticism, though, again, it builds many stories into its premise. Moore tends to have less of a linear throughline in his tales than Gaiman. In the end Sandman's plot is pretty straightforward, even if it is highly embroidered with its many tangents. The thing is, those tangents illuminate Morpheus' nature and since the main plot is about how his nature changes, the tangents are thematically strong.

 

[theenglish]

Isn't it time to move this discussion to its own thread?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Isn't it time to move this discussion to its own thread?

And if that conversation evolved a little to the left of left too, would we partition that as well until every new idea yet to be had is predisposed to be living in it's own tiny sectioned off tuffet of the gestalt humaniconciousphere?

I was thinking in the bath earlier that what really gets my goat on sandman is the reliant abuse of negative space. It is nice sometimes but so much of this story was told by ancillary movements no where near anything powerful that I literally felt literailly (I'm sure that's a different word I had to imaginatively conjugate beyond reason because this damn language is not flexible enough for my imagination.) vegan, and no one sums that up better Thessaly.

She was so awesome. A very strong character, female or otherwise, who bent the solar system to her needs and unsympathetically saved the day. I have a thing for dirty librarians too, which helped. Then a couple volumes later, there's an entire trade paperback where Dream is in a funk because some bird dumped him and the entire Dreaming is treading on eggshells afraid that they're going to be unmade because he's all hurt, sad and mopey, because they all remember the the last time a lady made the god of stories feel pathetic... He sent her to hell for ten thousand years and counting for not saying "I love you" perhaps only because it was below her mortal station not to love him totally unconditionally... And the Sandman thought it was he who was the wronged party because he is so important and his feelings ARE the centre of the universe because being "spurned" does deserve Hells torture for ten thousand years (men are bastards.) ...So while they're all waiting for his mood to break they, his wandering fictions idle between cameos in mortal dreams tell unrelated stories unattached to the main plot directly of family and murder and betrayal...Moving along, three TPBs later (I'm not getting the times right. Don't bother looking for flaws. They're there and obvious.) we find out that the woman who done did this to Morpheus was Thessaly! They were enemies, "something" happened, then they were lovers and then she left. Gaimen skipped the courtship, the relationship and the break up, which would have been an interesting varied tale to plunge into rather than nipping at the cursory so that Niel could yet again instead focus on how it was wrong of her, most any woman, to get bored of his The Cult reject haircut and droning mellodrama.

Earlier when I said that this book was for girls, I did mean "female children" (15 and younger?) and not woman in general, because woman are people, and people (below a particular blood alcohol level.) do not fall in love with hair cuts and flowing leather trench coats, because these barely post pubescent fetuses don't know what the hell love really looks like, or most any other emotion either but somehow they have more than enough surplus income to keep many culturally challenged industries afloat.

You know I'm talking about High School Musical right?

Hours later I recalled that years ago there was a series of comics called Sandman presents. Minutes later I discovered that she had a four issue limited series but it doesn't seem to be about her past at al, although Bill Willingham was quite interesting before he started writing super heroes and Shawn McManus explained to me what it's like to go tripping with his pencils. I might look into that.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Isn't it time to move this discussion to its own thread?

And if that conversation evolved a little to the left of left too, would we partition that as well until every new idea yet to be had is predisposed to be living in it's own tiny sectioned off tuffet of the gestalt humaniconciousphere?

I was thinking in the bath earlier that what really gets my goat on sandman is the reliant abuse of negative space. It is nice sometimes but so much of this story was told by ancillary movements no where near anything powerful that I literally felt literailly (I'm sure that's a different word I had to imaginatively conjugate beyond reason because this damn language is not flexible enough for my imagination.) vegan, and no one sums that up better Thessaly.

She was so awesome. A very strong character, female or otherwise, who bent the solar system to her needs and unsympathetically saved the day. I have a thing for dirty librarians too, which helped.

She was awesome for sure. And I totally understand the dirty librarian thing, since I sort of am one. I love a dirty professor myself.

Then a couple volumes later, there's an entire trade paperback where Dream is in a funk because some bird dumped him and the entire Dreaming is treading on eggshells afraid that they're going to be unmade because he's all hurt, sad and mopey, because they all remember the the last time a lady made the god of stories feel pathetic... He sent her to hell for ten thousand years and counting for not saying "I love you" perhaps only because it was below her mortal station not to love him totally unconditionally... And the Sandman thought it was he who was the wronged party because he is so important and his feelings ARE the centre of the universe because being "spurned" does deserve Hells torture for ten thousand years (men are bastards.) ...So while they're all waiting for his mood to break they, his wandering fictions idle between cameos in mortal dreams tell unrelated stories unattached to the main plot directly of family and murder and betrayal...Moving along, three TPBs later (I'm not getting the times right. Don't bother looking for flaws. They're there and obvious.) we find out that the woman who done did this to Morpheus was Thessaly! They were enemies, "something" happened, then they were lovers and then she left. Gaimen skipped the courtship, the relationship and the break up, which would have been an interesting varied tale to plunge into rather than nipping at the cursory so that Niel could yet again instead focus on how it was wrong of her, most any woman, to get bored of his The Cult reject haircut and droning mellodrama.

Well, the entire point of the whole series is that Dream is an immature, self-centered, self-indulgent dumbass who finally gets a clue about humanity, including compassion, and so is reborn. His actions towards his lovers are shown over and over, in a highly critical light.

And it's pretty difficult to show things like courtship, relationship and break up for a character like Dream. It would either be far too mundane and snap the fragile atmosphere of mystery, or it would make too clear what an ass he is, and so take away any sympathy the reader has for him. He is sparingly used in his own story because the only way you can make a character as much of a dick as he is, is to have him show up every once in a while, seemingly cool and badass. Even as written, as you say, his self-indulgent mopiness is annoying - but it's supposed to create frustration in the reader so that his redemption has some meaning.

Earlier when I said that this book was for girls, I did mean "female children" (15 and younger?) and not woman in general, because woman are people, and people (below a particular blood alcohol level.) do not fall in love with hair cuts and flowing leather trench coats, because these barely post pubescent fetuses don't know what the hell love really looks like, or most any other emotion either but somehow they have more than enough surplus income to keep many culturally challenged industries afloat.

I think your criticism is very valid - there is a very self-conscious, trendy Gothiness to Dream that is very of its time. As for love - men and women of all ages fall in love with beauty and power daily. They have throughout the ages and will no doubt continue to. Passionate love is a very selfish emotion and has as much to do with "look who I got to fall in love with me" as anything else. Dream is both beautiful and powerful - he's also more than a god. Humans are notoriously unable to resist the seduction of gods, and if they do resist Awfully Bad Things Happen to them. In some ways Sandman is the tale of an Old School God struggling toward the psychological awareness of the modern world. It's also the tale of a self-absorbed twit groping at something beyond his comprehension (compassion) while being so arrogant as to believe that nothing beyond his comprehension could possibly exist. Kinda like all us bumbling idiots do throughout our lives.

You know I'm talking about High School Musical right?

Other than it exists, I am blissfully unaware of all things High School Musical.

Sandman is far from perfect, but it's a complex, layered narrative that uses the format of pictures and words to a very high potential. Is it adolescent in many ways - sure. So are a lot of works of great literature. Catcher in the Rye. Romeo and Juliet. Everything by Ernest Hemingway. And American comic books prior to Sandman were nowehre near as complex, so it stands out as a pioneering work. Works equal to it have come out since, but nothing has really topped it. Not yet.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Works equal to it have come out since, but nothing has really topped it. Not yet.

Certainly not anything written by Jeph Loeb, the Rob Liefeld of comic writers.

(Oh, yes--I went there!)

 

[Ben Sisko3]

Works equal to it have come out since, but nothing has really topped it. Not yet.

Certainly not anything written by Jeph Loeb, the Rob Liefeld of comic writers.

(Oh, yes--I went there!)

I though Rob Liefeld was the Rob Liefeld of comic writers, and that Jeph Loeb was the Ed Wood of comic writers.

I may be wrong.