Denobulan, Vulcan and human sexuality; bonding

[commodore64]

Croatia is not exactly in the Delta quadrant you know

No. According to Colbert (my idol), that apparently is Canton, [name a US state].

This is kinda weird... Shadows of P'Jem? I don't think cleavage - diving counts as chemistry, that's just a lame attempt at humor.
ANiS? That one only showed that Archer was attracted to T'pol (and that he had wet dreams about her, and was sexually deprived). But hey, I suppose every male crew member (and couple of female ones possibly) had to fantasize about T'pol at some point, right?
You mentioned Damage? I do remember T'pol having (literally) wet dreams in that one, but...

You know what's funny, I think the cleavage diving is more subtle than Broken's Bow's toushie rubbing Decon scene, Harbinger's "seduction" scene and a few others. The cleavage diving wasn't necessarily what I was talking about though. I think the entire episode is interesting: he's trying to get her to open up and she's mad at him.

On T'Pol's wet dream -- when does dreaming about killing someone become sexy? Seriously. I didn't find it particularly hot before she dreamed about strangling him, but after that -- it seemed frightening.

I think Damage's has two great Archer/T'Pol scenes: her handing him a towel (the reveal something's wrong with her and Archer is starting to get that) and then the scene where she breaks the PADD (where Archer has proof she's not herself, and that it's not her lack of meditation). Again, I think "sexy" has nothing to do with people removing clothes (as per my comment about ANIS and liking the funeral scene more than the Decon scene). Sexy to me is "sexy" when it's smart -- to me it's more about caring.

 

[Mach5]

You know what's funny, I think the cleavage diving is more subtle than Broken Bow's toushie rubbing Decon scene

Someone called that an attempt to lure in the Baywatch fans
(I was 17 when I first saw it, needles to say I loved it back then )

Harbinger's "seduction" scene

It was not that bad actually... Trip falling for the "exploration" BS was retarded though.

On T'Pol's wet dream -- when does dreaming about killing someone become sexy? Seriously. I didn't find it particularly hot before she dreamed about strangling him, but after that -- it seemed frightening.

Wow, it really is interesting how people tend to see things the way they want to. I always thought that dream represented T'pol's fear of eventually going trellium-crazy and hurting someone she cared about.

 

[Captain X]

On T'Pol's wet dream -- when does dreaming about killing someone become sexy? Seriously. I didn't find it particularly hot before she dreamed about strangling him, but after that -- it seemed frightening.

Wow, it really is interesting how people tend to see things the way they want to. I always thought that dream represented T'pol's fear of eventually going trellium-crazy and hurting someone she cared about.

You're talking to someone who has always seen things that weren't there and ignored things that were there in order to fit her view on the whole 'shipping thing. I'm sure way more people noticed the rather sultry make-out session in the shower prior to the writers turning her into a zombie and revealing that it was T'Pol having a nightmare instead of the real thing (much to the disappointment of many, but I digress). I kind of like how certain people will focus on Archer's wet dream and his Freudian slips as some kind of sign that both of them are attracted to each other, even though T'Pol is having wet dreams about Trip.

 

[Mach5]

I kind of like how certain people will focus on Archer's wet dream and his Freudian slips as some kind of sign that both of them are attracted to each other, even though T'Pol is having wet dreams about Trip.

Well, people see what they want to see, and I don't think there's anything bad in that as long as they don't start bashing other people for seeing that which actually is there (but there was little, if any bashing in this discussion).
As for Archers dreams in ANIS, well... To me, they just didn't feel right! I mean, he's the Captain for God's sake! Okay, man has a right to dream whatever he wants (especially since he spends every day around a hottie in a catsuit), but please don't make me watch that.
I'll say this again, I never saw anything which even remotely suggested that T'pol was phisically attracted to Archer (and no, Blalock saying how Bakula has a killer body doesn't count).

 

[Nimthim]

Well here's a point of view that will probably get me laughed out of here, but this is what I 'saw':

I felt from the first episode that there was an undercurrent of chemistry between Archer and Hoshi. To me, it came from the actors much as the Trip/T'Pol dynamic was fueled by the actors' chemistry. When Archer would approach Hoshi on the bridge, I saw a different body language and vocal tone than the interactions with other bridge officers. And I'm not buying the big brother/uncle/father figure expanation. Hoshi interacted that way with Phlox, and it was entirely different. To me, when she was supposedly protective of Archer, it felt more like jealousy, and there was a sense that she easily jump his bones. And Archer's protectiveness of Hoshi was more than a mentor. Now, of course, that would be a relationship that couldn't develop. But a suggestion that an attraction existed, sort of like Kirk/Rand, but handled more maturely, could have been interesting. And of course, Hoshi's character had little development.

When we first viewed the Mirror episodes, I remarked to my husband that finally Hoshi got Archer - or vice versa, if only in an alternate reality.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

There is a contingent of Archer/Hoshi shippers out there, Nimthim. Judging by "IaMD," someone on the writing staff was aware of that chemistry too. Two of my fave Archer/Hoshi scenes: Archer reassuring freaked-out, post-torture Hoshi in "Zero Hour" ("You're the only one who can do it"), and Hoshi teaching Archer how to insult like a Tellarite in "Babel One."

 

[Nimthim]

I'm not sure I would call myself a shipper, but thanks for the reassurance, HR. Those two scenes are great instances of the connection between these characters. I was also thinking of the end of "Observer Effect" and how Archer is so focused on Hoshi and barely contains his joy at her revival from the dead - Trip gets barely a glance (although to give Archer a break, he knows T'Pol is there for Trip, considering her request to Archer). After the IaMD scenes between Hoshi and Forrest - a really big zero in the chemistry department - the ones with Archer and Hoshi are even more effective.

 

[Mach5]

Interesting, I was always one of those people who believed Malcolm and Hoshi would hit it off eventually (but then, he probably was gay... or at least bi curious).
But Archer and Hoshi really did seam to have a connection, though I'm not convinced that it was sexual... I don't know, he just seemed too much of a father figure to her.

 

[commodore64]

Wow, it really is interesting how people tend to see things the way they want to. I always thought that dream represented T'pol's fear of eventually going trellium-crazy and hurting someone she cared about.

Then, why didn't she get herself over to Phlox's for help? See, that's the thing that bugged me. She right away washed cold water over her face and went off to do more trellium.

By the way, I didn't mean to imply T'Pol wanted to kill Trip other than in her dream. I saw her killing him, especially the way she did, as a way to "kill" her emotion.

This is what a dream dictionary says about "killing someone" in your dreams.

To dream that you kill someone, indicates that heavy stress may cause you to lose your temper and self-control. Consider the person you have killed and ask yourself if you feel any rage towards him or her in your waking life. You may very well be expressing some anger or hatred toward this person. Alternatively, you may be trying to kill or put an end to an aspect of yourself that is represented by the person killed. Identify the characteristics of this person and ask yourself how you do not want to be like him or her.

To dream that you have been killed, suggests that your actions are disconnected from your emotions. Alternatively, it refers to drastic changes that are happening in your life.

This dream may also represent a part of you or your life that you wish would leave you alone and stop creating a nuisance. Killing may represent the killing off of old parts of yourself and old habits.​

​

 

[Nimthim]

There's also this interpretation:
"In dreams of murdering loved ones or family members, the dreamer may be worried about a current course of action, which he or she believes is “hurting” the murdered person, i.e., a child or spouse."
Could be just as applicable.
In any case, notice all the 'may be' and 'could be'. However we see the characters, we can choose our explanation of the dream.

 

[Nimthim]

Well Mach5, that kind of is my point - for all the writing of Archer as a 'father figure' to Hoshi, the chemistry sometimes undermined that.

Malcolm and Hoshi could have been interesting - there were some vague hints that way.

 

[Mach5]

By the way, I didn't mean to imply T'Pol wanted to kill Trip other than in her dream. I saw her killing him, especially the way she did, as a way to "kill" her emotion.

This is what a dream dictionary says about "killing someone" in your dreams.

To dream that you kill someone, indicates that heavy stress may cause you to lose your temper and self-control. Consider the person you have killed and ask yourself if you feel any rage towards him or her in your waking life. You may very well be expressing some anger or hatred toward this person. Alternatively, you may be trying to kill or put an end to an aspect of yourself that is represented by the person killed. Identify the characteristics of this person and ask yourself how you do not want to be like him or her.

Makes sense. Trip was the embodiment of everything she was raised to reject. He may have stirred something within her that her culture considered utterly intolerable (Vulcans do find infatuation unacceptable).
T'pol probably realized she was drowning in the pool of emotional sh*t, so to speak, wanted out, and for that had to go straight to the source.

There's also this interpretation:
"In dreams of murdering loved ones or family members, the dreamer may be worried about a current course of action, which he or she believes is “hurting” the murdered person, i.e., a child or spouse."

Also applicable, I agree. T'pol had to suspect that all this was bound to end in pain.

​

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

...for all the writing of Archer as a 'father figure' to Hoshi, the chemistry sometimes undermined that.

Malcolm and Hoshi could have been interesting - there were some vague hints that way.

I appreciate powerful or heartfelt scenes between this or that set of characters, whether I see them from a shipper perspective or a different context. I think there are great Archer/T'Pol scenes in "P'Jem" and "Stigma," "Singularity," and all through the Vulcan arc, for example. Trip and Hoshi have quality moments in "Vanishing Point" and "OE." Trip's breakdown scene in "The Forgotten" is really something, whether you think of T/T as colleagues, friends, or more-than. Malcolm had his T'Pol fantasy in "Shuttlepod One." Hoshi and Travis have a couple of nice scenes in "United," working together to figure out a way around that Andorian battle ritual. And, y'know, there's that last whopper of a moment between them in "IaMD II."

There was chemistry to burn between all of 'em, IMHO. That's why there are--and could be--so many interpretations of episodes and scenes and relationships.

 

[gblews]

I missed where T'Les warned T'Pol about having children with Trip.

T'LES: You've changed. Your emotions were always close to the surface, but you managed to suppress them. It's because of this Commander Tucker, isn't it? He's the reason why you refuse to bond with Koss. Do you really believe that a human and a Vulcan can have a future together? Imagine the shame your children would endure, assuming that the two of you could have children.
T'POL: That wouldn't be your concern.

Thanks for the dialogue. What I find interesting is that T'Pol doesn't respond with, "no Mother, that's not true", or even something like, "its not like that between us". She only tells T'Les that its none of her business. Sounds like T'Pol realized that mother had seen through her, just as T'Les had seen through Trip.

 

[gblews]

Wow, it really is interesting how people tend to see things the way they want to. I always thought that dream represented T'pol's fear of eventually going trellium-crazy and hurting someone she cared about.

Then, why didn't she get herself over to Phlox's for help? See, that's the thing that bugged me. She right away washed cold water over her face and went off to do more trellium.

By the way, I didn't mean to imply T'Pol wanted to kill Trip other than in her dream. I saw her killing him, especially the way she did, as a way to "kill" her emotion.

With respect to the stangulation part of the dream, what T'Pol was actually dreaming was about her being under the influence of Trellium and being compelled to kill someone, even someone very close to her.

In the dream, when she started to strangle Trip, it was only after turning into a Vulcan Trell Zombie. Prior to turning into the Vulcan Trell Zombie she was her normal self in the dream. And in her normal state in the dream, she appeared quite docile and content. Well maybe docile is not the right word.

In her previous encounter with large doses of Trellium on the Selaya, she ended up nearly losing her mind, and threatening to kill Archer twice, and that was no dream. No reason to think that this profound loss of control and violent behavior was on her mind.

This sequence of on screen events is what leads me to conclude that the part of her dream about strangling Trip (while she was a Vulcan Zombie) had to do with her fear of what she might do while on Trell.

Now, why she sought more Trell after that is something I have tried to figure out for a while now, but I'm drawing a blank. But she was addicted and maybe a bit irrational. Lord knows that is how she looked while down in the cargo bay looking for the stuff.

To dream that you kill someone, indicates that heavy stress may cause you to lose your temper and self-control. Consider the person you have killed and ask yourself if you feel any rage towards him or her in your waking life. You may very well be expressing some anger or hatred toward this person. Alternatively, you may be trying to kill or put an end to an aspect of yourself that is represented by the person killed. Identify the characteristics of this person and ask yourself how you do not want to be like him or her.

I don't see how this applies to T'Pol's situation. She was dreaming of being under the influence of a drug that compelled her kill.

​

 

[Captain X]

Then, why didn't she get herself over to Phlox's for help? See, that's the thing that bugged me. She right away washed cold water over her face and went off to do more trellium.

Well, she was a drug addict, after all.

By the way, I didn't mean to imply T'Pol wanted to kill Trip other than in her dream. I saw her killing him, especially the way she did, as a way to "kill" her emotion.

I saw that taken with the context of her waking up and freaking out as a fear of losing control of herself and hurting someone she cares about.

 

[commodore64]

Wow, it really is interesting how people tend to see things the way they want to. I always thought that dream represented T'pol's fear of eventually going trellium-crazy and hurting someone she cared about.

Then, why didn't she get herself over to Phlox's for help? See, that's the thing that bugged me. She right away washed cold water over her face and went off to do more trellium.

By the way, I didn't mean to imply T'Pol wanted to kill Trip other than in her dream. I saw her killing him, especially the way she did, as a way to "kill" her emotion.

With respect to the stangulation part of the dream, what T'Pol was actually dreaming was about her being under the influence of Trellium and being compelled to kill someone, even someone very close to her.

In the dream, when she started to strangle Trip, it was only after turning into a Vulcan Trell Zombie. Prior to turning into the Vulcan Trell Zombie she was her normal self in the dream. And in her normal state in the dream, she appeared quite docile and content. Well maybe docile is not the right word.

In her previous encounter with large doses of Trellium on the Selaya, she ended up nearly losing her mind, and threatening to kill Archer twice, and that was no dream. No reason to think that this profound loss of control and violent behavior was on her mind.

This sequence of on screen events is what leads me to conclude that the part of her dream about strangling Trip (while she was a Vulcan Zombie) had to do with her fear of what she might do while on Trell.

Now, why she sought more Trell after that is something I have tried to figure out for a while now, but I'm drawing a blank. But she was addicted and maybe a bit irrational. Lord knows that is how she looked while down in the cargo bay looking for the stuff.

All shipping aside, I don't (again) think T'Pol had been fantasizing about killing Trip. I also don't think she'd been fantasizing about doing Trip either. I think what's likely is she was dreaming about killing her emotions; Trip = emotions.

Why did she quit doing trell, not after dreaming about killing Trip but after Archer said he needed her? I think because she's needed. I don't think it's "hero worship."

To dream that you kill someone, indicates that heavy stress may cause you to lose your temper and self-control. Consider the person you have killed and ask yourself if you feel any rage towards him or her in your waking life. You may very well be expressing some anger or hatred toward this person. Alternatively, you may be trying to kill or put an end to an aspect of yourself that is represented by the person killed. Identify the characteristics of this person and ask yourself how you do not want to be like him or her.

I don't see how this applies to T'Pol's situation. She was dreaming of being under the influence of a drug that compelled her kill.

​

Thanks for your interpretation.

 

[Captain X]

Wow, that wasn't condescending at all...

 

[trj]

what does archer confronting tpol about trell have do with sexuality or bonding anyway?

 

[Captain X]

It doesn't. As captain it would be a concern of his that his first officer has a drug problem, and I don't think he ever knew for sure anyway. I don't think anyone did apart from Phlox, even if they suspected. One could argue "concerned friend" too since their "friendship" came out of nowhere sometime in season 2, but the CO/XO thing would be most important to their situation. Which is why it makes Archer that much worse for abandoning his post and leaving her in command when she was exhibiting signs of being unstable.