Lieutenant J.G.... gah.
- Thread starter Neopeius
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We also see the braid in TMP, where Uhura (mis?)identifies it as denoting Ensign.
One might speculate that there's some sort of a threshold for getting promoted past Ensign, and that there thus are many, many complacent Ensigns in Kirk's crew, but very few ambitious officers who have made Lt(jg) but haven't yet made full Lt.
Also, I do like to think that the braid system stays the same throughout the years, and that the broken braid of TMP did denote promotion to Lt(jg) even though Uhura hadn't mentally caught up with that promotion of her not so close colleague yet.
There's some broken braid in "The Cage", too. Theoretically we could say that the broken-braid folks there are Lieutenants (junior grade), and ignore the apparent writer intention that they might be petty officers. And theoretically we might say that the solid-braid folks are full Lieutenants, which we know is true for Number One at least. That is, the milk run witnessed there could be conducted by a relatively junior crew. But perhaps this is a bit too much to digest.
Timo Saloniemi
One might speculate that there's some sort of a threshold for getting promoted past Ensign, and that there thus are many, many complacent Ensigns in Kirk's crew, but very few ambitious officers who have made Lt(jg) but haven't yet made full Lt.
Also, I do like to think that the braid system stays the same throughout the years, and that the broken braid of TMP did denote promotion to Lt(jg) even though Uhura hadn't mentally caught up with that promotion of her not so close colleague yet.
There's some broken braid in "The Cage", too. Theoretically we could say that the broken-braid folks there are Lieutenants (junior grade), and ignore the apparent writer intention that they might be petty officers. And theoretically we might say that the solid-braid folks are full Lieutenants, which we know is true for Number One at least. That is, the milk run witnessed there could be conducted by a relatively junior crew. But perhaps this is a bit too much to digest.
Timo Saloniemi
You'd think the incentive to achieve that promotion would be rather strong, considering the survival rate of Kirk's ensigns.
According to a memo printed in "The Making of ST:TMP", a stripe of broken braid represents "Ensign" in TMP. It notes that it's a change from TOS, where ensigns had no braid, but this meant it was impossible to separate crewman from ensign. Also, the TMP uniforms had at least two uniform classes on screen together at various times: Class A had sleeve braids to show rank, but Class B had shoulder epaulets with rank shown there, and nothing on the sleeves.
The script also identifies Billy Van Zandt's Rhaandarite character as "Alien Ensign", so Uhura does not make an error. Canonically, Uhura calls him "Ensign". The JG rank doesn't show up again till the TNG Season One Writers' Bible descriptions of the new characters.
There seems to have been some "concept slippage" in the wardrobe department after the early episodes. My guess is that people just forgot about it.
It certainly seems rare on 1701, which we would expect to reflect the service as a whole. If Starfleet personnel fit into a traditional pyramid hierarchy, we would expect to see more JG's than full lieutenants, but the full single braid is everywhere, even on security guards who just stand a post.
A bit silly to think that the organization would eliminate a rank all of a sudden and then bring it back later. What would be the reason? A simple insignia issue seems unlikely to cause such a radical change. But it was also pretty sloppy for TOS to go with no insignia for everyone below JG.
The officer who gives Kirk permission to come aboard also has the single broken braid and is called "ensign."
Isn't it generally assumed that Saavik was a LTJG in TWOK? Or was that a retrofit? I don't care for the metal pin insignia system and don't know much about it.
--Justin
Obviously just plain laziness and lack of foresight! They should've known this sort of thing would be debated over 40 years later! Sadly, some of the people involved in the show, seemed to think it was just a temporary television show that alot of their audience would watch on black & white TV's. It's heresy, and a travesty I tells ya!
BUMP!
I was just asking about Christine Chapel's uniform in another thread when I came across this on Memory Alpha:
I can't remember if we ever saw braiding on her uniform - I'm not sure we did, but Memory Alpha is supposed to deal primarily with canon sources isn't it?
I was just asking about Christine Chapel's uniform in another thread when I came across this on Memory Alpha:
I can't remember if we ever saw braiding on her uniform - I'm not sure we did, but Memory Alpha is supposed to deal primarily with canon sources isn't it?
The source lamentably has a smidgen of speculation in almost every article, without clearly labeling it as such.
No rank markers are ever seen on Chapel in TOS or TAS, but she is shown as "Lieutenant" in her ID card in TAS "Mudd's Passion". In TMP, her epaulets show the single stripe of a full Lieutenant.
It would be quite atypical for a nurse in the 1960s to be a commissioned officer, even if she or he had a solid background in "bio-research". However, TNG rank pins make it easy to distinguish Ensigns from enlisteds, and Ensign-ranked nurses there are commonplace - so perhaps they were that in the 2260s, too? It might make sense, then, to assume that her rank in TOS was lower than in TAS and TMP, but higher than the standard beginning nurse's rank...
Timo Saloniemi
No rank markers are ever seen on Chapel in TOS or TAS, but she is shown as "Lieutenant" in her ID card in TAS "Mudd's Passion". In TMP, her epaulets show the single stripe of a full Lieutenant.
It would be quite atypical for a nurse in the 1960s to be a commissioned officer, even if she or he had a solid background in "bio-research". However, TNG rank pins make it easy to distinguish Ensigns from enlisteds, and Ensign-ranked nurses there are commonplace - so perhaps they were that in the 2260s, too? It might make sense, then, to assume that her rank in TOS was lower than in TAS and TMP, but higher than the standard beginning nurse's rank...
Timo Saloniemi
In the US forces, female nurses received officer-equivalent status around WW1, and full commissions in the WW2-Korean War period. This was in recognition of their education and gave them the authority to deal with enlisted medics/corpsmen, and it also helped limit fraternization.
--Justin
Quite true. The U.S. Navy followed the Royal Navy in terms of rank with the exception of ensign and lieutenant commander. In fact, the one time the British followed the Americans was when they adopted the rank of lieutenant commander.
As to the O.P., it does seem Tormolen was the only lt. j.g. they showed. Doesn't mean there weren't others. Had they shown more of them, it would've made more sense than all those full lieutenants running around.
From TNG on, they did a much better job with the ranks, with some notable exceptions, like O'Brien's changing rank pins, or Tuvok's rigamarole where he went from lt. with lt. cmdr. pips, to lt. pips, then back again to lt. cmdr.
Red Ranger
Actually, I think that in all nine animated episodes where Nurse Chapel appears, she has one single (Lieutenant) band of braid on her sleeves (which of course jibes with her ID card in "Mudd's Passion."
Greg Schnitzer
Star Trek Phase II
Greg Schnitzer
Star Trek Phase II
Or he meant that Sulu is not above him in the Chain of Command. Spock is and, as Science Officer, is probably Joe's immediate supervisor or perhaps one removed.
Let's also remember he was stark raving mad at that point. He would probably have said the same thing to Kirk. 
Yup, Chapel wears full Lieutenant braid in TAS, silly of me. In TOS, her uniform, while unique in design, still has sleeves long enough to display Lt(jg) braid if that really were her rank. The other female uniforms, those with black collars, do display rank braid on occasion.
Which makes me wonder: how is rank going to be indicated on the T-shirts of STXI? Those have no TMP-style epaulets to compensate for the loss of cuffs.
Is it similar to the TOS dress uniforms, then? That is, a single shoulder seam for Sulu and Uhura, but a double one for Spock (this indeed seems to be the case!), and perhaps no pronounced seam for Chekov?
Timo Saloniemi
Yup, Chapel wears full Lieutenant braid in TAS, silly of me. In TOS, her uniform, while unique in design, still has sleeves long enough to display Lt(jg) braid if that really were her rank. The other female uniforms, those with black collars, do display rank braid on occasion.
Which makes me wonder: how is rank going to be indicated on the T-shirts of STXI? Those have no TMP-style epaulets to compensate for the loss of cuffs.
Is it similar to the TOS dress uniforms, then? That is, a single shoulder seam for Sulu and Uhura, but a double one for Spock (this indeed seems to be the case!), and perhaps no pronounced seam for Chekov?
Timo Saloniemi
When was the first mention of ensign in TOS? Maybe the reason the rank was not given any insignia was because originally their wasn't meant to be any ensigns. Then Chekov was introduced as an ensign and they didn't have any rank insignia to give him.
The TOS dress uniforms had junior officers wearing their department symbols and rank insignia up to Lt. Senior officers wore their medals and no rank stripes, however Lt Commanders only had thin gold piping on their collars and chest, commanders (or 1st officers) thick gold piping on their collars and chest. Captains had additional gold piping on their shoulder seams and commodores additional gold piping on their arm seams. As usual their were some goofs, with one commodore wearing a captains dress uniform and one Lt wearing a Lt Commanders dress uniform.
The TOS dress uniforms had junior officers wearing their department symbols and rank insignia up to Lt. Senior officers wore their medals and no rank stripes, however Lt Commanders only had thin gold piping on their collars and chest, commanders (or 1st officers) thick gold piping on their collars and chest. Captains had additional gold piping on their shoulder seams and commodores additional gold piping on their arm seams. As usual their were some goofs, with one commodore wearing a captains dress uniform and one Lt wearing a Lt Commanders dress uniform.
Hey, good question! In production order, the earliest mention of an Ensign is to the unseen, late O'Neal in "The Galileo Seven", part of the landing party that tried to locate our survivors but got attacked by the cavemen. Well before Chekov's introduction, then. And "Court Martial" would be the first episode to associate the dialogue reference of "Ensign" with the braidless uniform, this time the female clerk called to testify in Kirk's trial.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
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