It's not like Archer will be in the bloody thing, just a mention. Why so serious?
4 Clip descriptions from Empire *Spoiler heavy*
- Thread starter datas_cat_spot
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One is either of the body or one is not. It is the will of Landru.
They are his opinions, but let's leave the realm of psychoanalysis and delusions out of the discussion, shall we? It's getting personal and I don't think it has a place here.WOW.I guess when psychiatrists say "you can't talk someone out of their delusions", it's true.
(and, no, they're NOT facts--they're your opinion. You really need to learn the difference)
These are opinions. I disagree with the first and hold some skepticism concerning the second, but they are yours and you are entitled to hold them. They should, however, be offered as opinions and not used as bludgeons. That is not good debate and could be perceived as being unnecessarily hostile.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Uh, no, actually, that Enterprise violates continuity is NOT an opinion. It's a simple matter of looking at what we know of the 22nd century, and then looking at all the ways it violates that. There is no opinion requires, it's simple logic.
Ah, there he(JJ Abrams) goes, dissing classic Trek again.
One is either of the body or one is not. It is the will of Landru.
datas_cat_spot is of The Valley! They simply have different ways there!
One is either of the body or one is not. It is the will of Landru.
Festival!
Logic, is it? I've seen ALL of Trek (multiple times) and while there may some individual inconsistencies within and between series (Enterprise included)--NOTHING but one's PERSONAL OPINION can declare Enterprise "a continuity violation". You didn't like Enterprise. We get it. It didn't conform to your fundamentalist views. But, again, YOU don't get to decide what IS and what IS NOT "canon". Well, you can, FOR YOURSELF--IN YOUR OPINION. But that's it. Simply making multiple assertions that things are "facts" does NOT give such assertions any foundations. Sorry.
Coming from a man who made Dana Scully an Immortal and had her end up having something to do with the federation and starfleet (I've been to your website scopin your fanfic)
WTF ???
Yeah its stupid, but Trek has often been stupid with how its technology does and doesn't work.
For example in TOS we have the Enterprise moving at high warp in its sling shot around the sun and now in addition traveling through time that is able to beam to individuals back to the precise moment that they were originally beamed aboard.
Again all at high warp and will traveling through time.
He's supposed to be enough of a geek that she should know better.
Mmmmmmm......bacon.......
To quote Trek "your logic escapes me". Their are very few references to this time period. The bulk of them indicate earth is a paradise (both TNG, First Contact, VOY and DS9 support this). Earth for 50 years prior to Archer has had no wars, no disease no hunger (something that has never happen on our planet to date) and again all from references before ENT. Technology wise we know that warp drive is around, we know that Earth had people go out and colonize. We know that Mars has a colony. We know Impulse drive is roughly the same for the last 2 hundred years, we know that transporters were around by at least 2209 (we don't know when they were invented), we know that first contact with the klingons happened centuries prior to TNG episode First Contact. We don't know when phasers, photon torpedoes, tractor beams, ect are invented.
The biggest complaints when ENT started about the environment was that Earth (and its people) were too clean. That earth wasn't a dark and dreary place. But while we do have horror stories about earth in the 21st century (From WWIII, to Colonel Green, to the court room scene in Encounter at Farpoint) all of those are from the 21st century. And all references seem to make Earth a veritable paradise. First Contact with the Klingons, time frame is not a problem, but if McCoy was talking about Earth's first contact with the Klingons it wasn't a disaster. Of course, he might have been referring to the official first contact of the Federation and the Klingons, or he could have been talking about any Federations race first contact with the Klingons (like the Vulcans, Andorians, or Tellerites of which we known nothing). The term Starfleet, which we don't have an origin for. First used in Taste of Armegaddon (but I assume that in the Trek universe actually should have been used from the get go, same as the Federation). But again since we don't know, they can make it anything they want and not be violating a damn thing. Phasers, since they used lasers in the cage, we assume (key word) assume one of two things. That they aren't the same thing as phasers (ie the writers later came up with a name they liked better, which is what happened), or that Phasers were created after Lasers were the primary weapon. This is also try of Warp versus time warp, but later trek's (before ENT) and TOS itself, stick with warp drive as the standard correct answer even for the time before kirk was Captain (also supports the Phaser/laser argument). Then really the last is Vulcans and how they were portrayed. And again much is made out of nothing. We are never told all Vulcans can meld (ever), we are never told Vulcans role with Earth, except they were the first aliens that contacted us (officially). And over the decades we have seen all sorts of behavior from Vulcans from distant and cold, to extremely passionate.
That leaves to bits from Balance of Terror. The use of nukes as primitive weapons and the lack of face to face communication. We never are told if any of the other Earth ships we see use nukes, but we do see face to face communication systems (and frankly that one would be hard since we have face to face world communication ability on Earth today).
Over all technology issues. Most of technology of NX-01 is close to that of TOS from a hundred years later. Which is fairly accurate, but that same is also true of the time between original TOS and TNG.
But alot of the more advance technology we saw on ENT was alien technology and not Earth technology.
Did Enterprise violate canon (on occasion which every Trek series has done starting with TOS) but exactly how did it do worse then any other series?
That's wonderful. No, truly. Rabid fundamentalism is the way to go. We wouldn't want to wait until the actual film came out and judge it on its merits (or lack thereof). No. What sane, rational people should do is excoriate someone who was asked by the OWNERS of the franchise to come up with a way to reinvigorate it. The laughable part (or should I say, AMONG the laughable parts) is that both "continuity" and "canon" have been REPEATEDLY violated already. It is a feeble point upon which to rest protests. Critique the visuals on aesthetic grounds? Fine. Prefer a different premise than the one this film is using? No problem. Heap vituperation and hatred on someone who was ASKED to do something NEW for not sticking 100 percent to something that internally inconsistent already is lunacy.
With regard to previous canon violations, particularly by Enterprise, very few of them have been of the catastrophic variety (Archer encountering the Borg, Ferengi, and Romulans capable of cloaking come pretty damn close, and require some major mental gymnastics to work around, many of which don't make the crew of the NX-01 Enterprise, Starfleet, or the Vulcan High Command look very competent). For the most part, the violations have been, in the grand scheme of things, relatively minor. Still serious, but not enough to bring the whole franchise to a screeching halt (and a lot of them were fixed, in one way or another, in the fourth season).
This movie, on the other hand, goes well beyond muffing a middle initial or misquoting a date in a line of dialogue, or even messing up the date of first contact with a major race. We're not looking at a violation of established continuity, this is a wholesale trashing of it, and with it, the integrity of the whole franchise, IF this film is permitted to supplant everything that came before it.
Of everything said about Berman & Braga, by myself and others, at least they knew better than to try and pull off something this far beyond the pale.
This movie, on the other hand, goes well beyond muffing a middle initial or misquoting a date in a line of dialogue, or even messing up the date of first contact with a major race. We're not looking at a violation of established continuity, this is a wholesale trashing of it, and with it, the integrity of the whole franchise, IF this film is permitted to supplant everything that came before it.
Of everything said about Berman & Braga, by myself and others, at least they knew better than to try and pull off something this far beyond the pale.
Because, as we all know, with the first starship redesign or the first interior redecoration, continuity dies a whimpering death. It doesn't matter if they get the facts as correct as any other series or movie has. All that matter is that the ship is wrong!!!!
If they can't get the small details right, or even demonstrate that they even made an effort, why should be trust them with the big ones?
Well, in MattJC's thread, he metioned that Orci told him there would be an onscreen explination as to why the ship looks different. So, if we go by that, they do seem to be making an effort to get those details right. What now? If there is a defendable reason for the differences in the ship, would you be willing to wait and see whether or not they massacre your precious canon (which, for the record, the people in charge have said repeatedly that, while changing some things, they will by-and-large respect the established canon)?