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CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI! *SPOILERS*

Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

At least two people who have seen parts of the movie reference a line Scotty says in a scene where he and Kirk meet Leonard Nimoy's Spock. They're talking about an experiemental beaming technique, and Scotty explains that it worked on fruit but, "didn’t turn out so well for Admiral Archer’s beagle."

Still the question remains why Porthos was used in such an experiment. There is some quote in an ENT episode that suggests Archer values Porthos' life at least as much as other humans, something like, "the captain wouldn't even allow such a thing with his dog" or whatever...so I'd love to know the circumstances of this canine demise.
Assuming "Admiral Archer" is in fact Jonathan (no matter who the beagle is), Jon wouldn't take risks with his dog, period. Depending on the context of the line, I'm hoping Scotty is just cracking a joke, and it's not meant to be taken literally, because Admiral Archer's devotion to all of his beagles would have been legendary... :)

You Scottish bastard, you killed my dog...

You Scottish bastard, you killed my dog!

You Scottish bastard...
:lol:
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

I still think there's a chance we'll see T'Pol as an instructor at the Academy, but this is a good start. At least we know the writers looked at ENT enough to know Archer had a beagle for a pet.

Isn't an instructor technically a member of Starfleet? Shouldn't the first Vulcan in Federation's Starfleet be Spock?
No, he shouldn't. That was never said.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

...And odds are that T'Pol, who already held commission in the United Earth Starfleet as of ENT Season Four, went on to serve in the UFP one, too. She might be a celebrity if she were the only Vulcan to do so, but it's just as possible that Vulcans enlisted in great numbers at the founding of the UFP Starfleet and nobody really remembers T'Pol as a special figure of history.

The other members of Archer's crew weren't exactly destined for immortality, either, judging by the lack of career progress in the "TatV" flash-forward. So lack of mention of these people in STXI should be no more unrealistic or objectionable than lack of mention in the other incarnations of Star Trek - even if STXI is in the near-unique position of having been filmed after ENT and thus being able to make such references.

As for the poor beagle, we don't have the exact dialogue yet, so his or her survival is an open question at the moment...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

You do not directly address former Presidents of the United States as "Mr. President." You may refer to them as "former Presdient So-and-so" in the context of their time or actions in office, but they do not retain the title. If we take this as a convention that would be carried forward to the 23rd century, it is acceptable that Archer be referred to as Admiral even if he was once Federation President.

The entire staff of the radio station where I work were schooled in this etiquette by Governor Carter's staff in advance of his visiting to appear on our morning talk show.

Further citations:

From protocolconsultants.com:
"Head of State" in the USA is a Governor or the President. A leader in another country might be a president, prime minister, etc.



How to address a FORMER head of state:
  • Senators and Governors would retain their titles.
  • House of Representatives would be "Mr./Ms."
  • Heads of State - each embassy/country, may be different. Contact specific embassy.
  • all others including presidents, do not retain their titles; they are "The Honorable" or in person "Mr./Ms."
From the Boston Globe's Peter Post:
Q: I'm unhappy when I hear former presidents and other ex-officials addressed as ''Mister." Doesn't this belittle their importance? I was taught to address people with the highest title or position they've achieved in their career.
W.P., Chelmsford
A: You've waded into the quagmire of what's ''proper" here, so bear with me. When addressing a former president of the United States in a formal setting, the correct form is ''Mr. Last Name." (''President LastName" or ''Mr. President" are terms reserved for the current head of state.) This is true for other ex-officials, as well.
When talking about the person to a third party, on the other hand, it's appropriate to say, ''former president Last Name." This holds for introductions, as well: A current state governor is introduced as ''Governor Tom Smith," while you'd introduce an ex-governor as ''former Governor Jim Bell."
Now, let's wade a bit deeper. In an informal setting (such as a private lunch), it's acceptable to use the title the ex-official held. Here, you could refer to former president Jimmy Carter as either ''President Carter" or ''Mr. Carter."
Finally, if the person you're lunching with held more than one previous position -- say, judge and ambassador -- you'll want to know which title he or she prefers.

From Judith "Miss Manners" Martin:
The rule is that there is only one president of the United States at a time; therefore, the title does not accompany anyone out of office. Many lesser titles do, however, so a former president generally uses his last such title. The proper address is Senator Nixon, as it is Governor Reagan and Governor Carter.

If that's the case, then how come we constantly see former Presidents addressed as "Mister President" when people speak to them? Did the entire country just not get the right lesson from Miss Manners?
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

President Grant perfered to be called 'General'. its their prerogative really.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

You do not directly address former Presidents of the United States as "Mr. President." You may refer to them as "former Presdient So-and-so" in the context of their time or actions in office, but they do not retain the title. If we take this as a convention that would be carried forward to the 23rd century, it is acceptable that Archer be referred to as Admiral even if he was once Federation President.

The entire staff of the radio station where I work were schooled in this etiquette by Governor Carter's staff in advance of his visiting to appear on our morning talk show.

Further citations:

From protocolconsultants.com:
"Head of State" in the USA is a Governor or the President. A leader in another country might be a president, prime minister, etc.





How to address a FORMER head of state:
  • Senators and Governors would retain their titles.
  • House of Representatives would be "Mr./Ms."
  • Heads of State - each embassy/country, may be different. Contact specific embassy.
  • all others including presidents, do not retain their titles; they are "The Honorable" or in person "Mr./Ms."
From the Boston Globe's Peter Post:
Q: I'm unhappy when I hear former presidents and other ex-officials addressed as ''Mister." Doesn't this belittle their importance? I was taught to address people with the highest title or position they've achieved in their career.
W.P., Chelmsford
A: You've waded into the quagmire of what's ''proper" here, so bear with me. When addressing a former president of the United States in a formal setting, the correct form is ''Mr. Last Name." (''President LastName" or ''Mr. President" are terms reserved for the current head of state.) This is true for other ex-officials, as well.
When talking about the person to a third party, on the other hand, it's appropriate to say, ''former president Last Name." This holds for introductions, as well: A current state governor is introduced as ''Governor Tom Smith," while you'd introduce an ex-governor as ''former Governor Jim Bell."
Now, let's wade a bit deeper. In an informal setting (such as a private lunch), it's acceptable to use the title the ex-official held. Here, you could refer to former president Jimmy Carter as either ''President Carter" or ''Mr. Carter."
Finally, if the person you're lunching with held more than one previous position -- say, judge and ambassador -- you'll want to know which title he or she prefers.

From Judith "Miss Manners" Martin:
The rule is that there is only one president of the United States at a time; therefore, the title does not accompany anyone out of office. Many lesser titles do, however, so a former president generally uses his last such title. The proper address is Senator Nixon, as it is Governor Reagan and Governor Carter.

If that's the case, then how come we constantly see former Presidents addressed as "Mister President" when people speak to them? Did the entire country just not get the right lesson from Miss Manners?

I think people just do it not knowing the formal way to address them. Soon after Clinton took office, there was an assassination attempt on H.W. in Kuwait. Clinton took military action and then addressed the nation about the incident. In his speech, he referred to H.W. as both "former President Bush" and also simply "President Bush." I thought that was curious.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

Interesting. Officers are continued to be called by their rank even after retirement...but if you are a retired admiral and a retired president, which would people call you?

Whichever you prefer them to
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

Maybe Scotty is only joking and the beagle didn't meet a sticky end at all.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

Perhaps Scotty is referring to an incident similar to the Voyager episode "Tuvix" and Archer & Porthos are fused together creating a new lifeform- Arthos!
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

I still think there's a chance we'll see T'Pol as an instructor at the Academy, but this is a good start. At least we know the writers looked at ENT enough to know Archer had a beagle for a pet.

Isn't an instructor technically a member of Starfleet? Shouldn't the first Vulcan in Federation's Starfleet be Spock?
Fanon does not equal canon.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

Why would Archer be an Admiral after being President of the Federation? He would be well over 100 years old. Maybe even as old as McCoy was in Encounter at Farpoint.

According to "IaMD, Part II" and the biofile on the TOS Defiant's desktop viewer Archer dies in 2245. We won't see him unless there's some Academy textbook/computer file photo of him in a history class or something.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

I still think there's a chance we'll see T'Pol as an instructor at the Academy, but this is a good start. At least we know the writers looked at ENT enough to know Archer had a beagle for a pet.


This would be way cool. Kinda means though that Humans were still learning things from the Vulcans for another 100 years.
 
At least this means Abrams is trying to respect canon and the established timeline since 1966. Mentioning Archer and Porthos is something only hardcore fans who stuck with UPN and Enterprise would probably recognize, so at least we know this movie won't be a TOTAL reboot.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

I'm in two minds about this.

1- It's good if indeed this is the only reference to the utterly abysmal ENT in the new movie.

2- It's just a shame that ENT's best character (Porthos The Dog) met such a sticky end.

At least a low-rated TREK spinoff and prequel that got mixed reviews is even getting mentioned. If nothing else at least this shows J.J. Abrams is trying to respect the established canon of the Roddenberry, Berman and Braga eras.
 
I still think there's a chance we'll see T'Pol as an instructor at the Academy, but this is a good start. At least we know the writers looked at ENT enough to know Archer had a beagle for a pet.

Isn't an instructor technically a member of Starfleet? Shouldn't the first Vulcan in Federation's Starfleet be Spock?
No, he shouldn't. That was never said.

Besides T'Pol already became a member of Starfleet. Spock wouldn't have been the first Vulcan.

Why would Archer be an Admiral after being President of the Federation? He would be well over 100 years old. Maybe even as old as McCoy was in Encounter at Farpoint.

According to "IaMD, Part II" and the biofile on the TOS Defiant's desktop viewer Archer dies in 2245. We won't see him unless there's some Academy textbook/computer file photo of him in a history class or something.

Good point, I forgot about that. I was just answering the point I didn't think it would be him anyways.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

I still think there's a chance we'll see T'Pol as an instructor at the Academy, but this is a good start. At least we know the writers looked at ENT enough to know Archer had a beagle for a pet.

I would think they looked at just the first episode where Malcolm or Travis said

"The captain won't even put his dog on this(transport) thing"
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

They could have a flashback of the launch of the NCC-1701 and maybe Archer is part of it. I know it wasn't on screen in "IaMD PII" that he died the day after, but I think ENT fans have liked the idea. It's no less canon than Robert April being the first captain. Perhaps they can canonize both at the same time?

I still think there's a chance we'll see T'Pol as an instructor at the Academy, but this is a good start. At least we know the writers looked at ENT enough to know Archer had a beagle for a pet.

I would think they looked at just the first episode where Malcolm or Travis said

"The captain won't even put his dog on this(transport) thing"

THAT'S the quote I was trying to recall. Thanks!
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

They could have a flashback of the launch of the NCC-1701 and maybe Archer is part of it. I know it wasn't on screen in "IaMD PII" that he died the day after, but I think ENT fans have liked the idea. It's no less canon than Robert April being the first captain. Perhaps they can canonize both at the same time?

It would be cool. I've noted the same thing before. Given Archer's lineage it would be appropriate for him to 'captain' the ship for its launch and trials. Perhaps there's a particularly nasty teething problem (there always are with new ships) that kills him.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

On the former president issue:

I think the incorrect usages of the title "President" and the honorific "Mr. President" are caused by two things. First, we accord the POTUS, an elected official and public servant, far too much unearned honor as though he were roylaty (which was not the founding fathers' intent) and thus lionize men who have held the job in the past. People have a strong desire, it seems, to be "ruled by a king." and to accord that "king" honor. Second, it is appropriate to refer to almost anyone else who is retired by the highest rank/office they achieved in their lifetime, and we simply drag that convention into ex-POTUS references as well. It's ignorance of the proper etiquette and protocol, but it's well-intentioned ignorance.

On the ENT reference issue:

I am certain that, in the minds of the filmmakers, this is a "throw away reference," something that will please fans and canon freaks and cause much speculation, as in this thread, but pass by virtually unnoticed as a simple "scrambled dog" joke by the uninitiated.
 
Re: CONFIRMED! ENT referenced in Star Trek XI!

Maybe Scotty is only joking and the beagle didn't meet a sticky end at all.

Could be. Some people (i.e. Dr. McCoy) don't like to be transported, so maybe Porthos doesn't either. The doggie could have just freaked out the first time he went through it.

They could have a flashback of the launch of the NCC-1701 and maybe Archer is part of it. I know it wasn't on screen in "IaMD PII" that he died the day after, but I think ENT fans have liked the idea. It's no less canon than Robert April being the first captain. Perhaps they can canonize both at the same time?

It would be cool. I've noted the same thing before. Given Archer's lineage it would be appropriate for him to 'captain' the ship for its launch and trials. Perhaps there's a particularly nasty teething problem (there always are with new ships) that kills him.

AFAIK, the bio screen - even if it wasn't directly shown - said that Archer dies at home, in Schenectady I think.
 
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